Comments on: Doubt the Movie Discussion http://anunslife.org/2009/01/08/doubt-the-movie-discussion/ Catholic Sisters and Nuns in Today's World Sat, 21 Nov 2009 00:32:01 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: jean http://anunslife.org/2009/01/08/doubt-the-movie-discussion/#comment-43290 jean Fri, 04 Sep 2009 18:16:39 +0000 http://anunslife.org/?p=1107#comment-43290 Something just dawned on me. Father Flynn told Sister James, as they sat in the courtyard, that the flowers in his Liturgy of the Hours re-called Springtime to his mind and spirit. Many refer to Vatican II as a Springtime in the Church (I am thinking, too, of the use of "Prague Spring" to describe the 1968 renaissance of that city and people and that "inbreaking of the [people's] spirit", even after decades of repression). When Father Flynn left his resignation on Sister A's desk, he left behind two of the flowers. It occurred to me that this might have been an act of generosity to the very fearful person Sister A proved herself to be: perhaps the flowers were a gift of the fragile yet irrepressible New Life, of the return of faith as Winter's doubt gives way to Spring's hope, to Summer's bounty, to Autumn's faith and the seasons of Atonement, Thanksgiving and Celebration. I have been thinking a lot lately about the lesson of Jesus and the tax collector, the woman who asked of Jesus the dog's leavings from the table, the Centurion................all the friends of Christ who appeared, through the eyes of men and women, as enemies. Jean Something just dawned on me. Father Flynn told Sister James, as they sat in the courtyard, that the flowers in his Liturgy of the Hours re-called Springtime to his mind and spirit. Many refer to Vatican II as a Springtime in the Church (I am thinking, too, of the use of “Prague Spring” to describe the 1968 renaissance of that city and people and that “inbreaking of the [people's] spirit”, even after decades of repression). When Father Flynn left his resignation on Sister A’s desk, he left behind two of the flowers. It occurred to me that this might have been an act of generosity to the very fearful person Sister A proved herself to be: perhaps the flowers were a gift of the fragile yet irrepressible New Life, of the return of faith as Winter’s doubt gives way to Spring’s hope, to Summer’s bounty, to Autumn’s faith and the seasons of Atonement, Thanksgiving and
Celebration.

I have been thinking a lot lately about the lesson of Jesus and the tax collector, the woman who asked of Jesus the dog’s leavings from the table, the Centurion…………….all the friends of Christ who appeared, through the eyes of men and women, as enemies.

Jean

]]> By: jean http://anunslife.org/2009/01/08/doubt-the-movie-discussion/#comment-41756 jean Fri, 21 Aug 2009 08:15:54 +0000 http://anunslife.org/?p=1107#comment-41756 I am watching Doubt again, third time alone and one watching with a friend. One of the things that puzzles me is that I have not encountered any discussion of Father Flynn's first homily - the one on Doubt. I thought it was a beautiful sermon and, in answer to Sister A's question about where it may have come from, I think the film offers some suggestions when the camers pans to individuals in the pews as Fr Flynn gives examples of private pains and doubts: "no one knows I am sick, no one knows I just lost my last friend, no one knows I've done something wrong". Two priests I know well often develop their homilies around spiritual struggles their congregants have revealed to the priests in private conversation, in the sacrament of reconciliation, in pastoral counseling, in RCIA, retreats, etc. What gets conveyed in the homily is not anyone's private story and struggle but the message that most of our spiritual struggles are universal struggles and I think the priests hope that, in the reminder of universality as we sit surrounded by dozens of people who have apparently survived the struggle (in this case, the doubt), we will be comforted, restored to a place of calm that allows us to hope for the return of our own faith rather than fear it has fled forever. Sister James says, at the table, "Perhaps Father Flynn thinks someone else has doubts". She is such an intelligent woman, and I can only imagine that her panic - whatever its source, it was I think in full bloom before that sermon on doubt - has led her to a place of spiritual forgetfulness. How could she not know that, in any Catholic communuty, at any time, there would be many struggling human beings living in spiritual doubt and that a priest would either know this in very specific terms or would speak, in charity, to the unknown sufferer? Father Flynn himself is increasingly moved as he gives this sermon of the comfort we can find even during times of doubt. And we see him later walk into (I think) the rectory where there is a stained glass window of God's eye looking down from the heavens. Encountering the window clearly has some impact - a seemingly sobering impact - on Father Flynn. I can add that up as the man is guilty of something and allow myself to follow Sr A's lead about what that is. Or, as I am more inclined to do, I can add that up as the man is guilty of something...............as are we all, simply because we are human and, thus, imperfect (I am speaking here more from my social work training and life experience than from any theological or bibical position). And, in my experience, the process through which awareness of our failings becomes contrition often carries us through periods of shame and doubt and even anger that "Something should make us feel so bad". These failings can be wholly undetectable to any human being because they can be failings of the heart and mind and soul just as easily and, perhaps, far more often than our failings are actions, words, public. I do not see how a Religious or priest can be in consecrated, intimate relationship with God and not believe that the relationship is an ever-dynamic one in which those very human, very frequent and very private failings are transparent to God. I would expect the same wary glance at the stained glass window whether Father Flynn did molest the boys OR he became aware of his abuse of the pulpit in the gossip sermon, in which he brilliantly and angrily batters St A and St James OR if he discovered himself some lack of charity and compassion for those sisters whose lives were changing in ways they disliked. I am not a great advocate for "Catholic guilt" but I do believe true contrition - and I use that as a general psychology and spiritual term - is often slow in coming. I think we often do not suffer **willingly*** the news of our own failings and harm to others and the healing misery of doubt and guilt and shame and desire for absolution and a new beginning bring us to that willingness that allows the growth of contrition and, when necessary, a desire for and intention of making reparation. What I saw was that Father Flynn was living that process: awareness of some failing and awareness of God's intimate presence in watchfulness and in comfort. What that failing was remains entirely up in the air for me. I am anxious for the day when a Catholic priest may again speak of persona failings and a struggle to overcome those failings without being accused of being gay or an abuser of children. Last thought: blond kid. I think he was a budding Alpha male (blond, light-eyed, white, handsome, smart - still Alpha (fe)male qualities in the States. Imagine in NYC in 1964: Jews assimilating; Blacks integrating and there the blond kid is....as Aryan-looking as can be. The stuff of an Alpha male) . It seemed possible to me ---------------- given all that Sister A explained about the demographics of the parish and her expectation that the black kid **would** get hit and the later incident in the hallway when blond kid knocked down the black kid --------------- that the blond kid yanked his arm away from the priest that morning because the priest had just singled out the black kid, touched him, tousled his hair, spoke affectionately and then reached out to touch the blond kid. My first thought was that the blond kid did not want to be singled out by a friend of the black kid; that the blond kid's issue was that he was raised in racist times and he was a bully, in part due to his "preferred" appearance, etc., and did not want to be contaminated by or associated with the black kid. I think Father Flynn's response was ill-advised as a response to a bully and to racism and I think it was likely to backfire (and it did, as soon as the blond kid figured out that the black kid was on the outside again). Humiliating the blond kid about cleanliness, Fr Flynn's subtle jabbing of his fingers at the kid in the gym............all that seemed like the response of an adult who had a lot of anger toward bullies and handled it badly. But I didn't buy it that it was an indicator that the kid had been molested. Still wanting to get Sr A a spiritual director, I am Jean I am watching Doubt again, third time alone and one watching with a friend. One of the things that puzzles me is that I have not encountered any discussion of Father Flynn’s first homily – the one on Doubt. I thought it was a beautiful sermon and, in answer to Sister A’s question about where it may have come from, I think the film offers some suggestions when the camers pans to individuals in the pews as Fr Flynn gives examples of private pains and doubts: “no one knows I am sick, no one knows I just lost my last friend, no one knows I’ve done something wrong”. Two priests I know well often develop their homilies around spiritual struggles their congregants have revealed to the priests in private conversation, in the sacrament of reconciliation, in pastoral counseling, in RCIA, retreats, etc. What gets conveyed in the homily is not anyone’s private story and struggle but the message that most of our spiritual struggles are universal struggles and I think the priests hope that, in the reminder of universality as we sit surrounded by dozens of people who have apparently survived the struggle (in this case, the doubt), we will be comforted, restored to a place of calm that allows us to hope for the return of our own faith rather than fear it has fled forever. Sister James says, at the table, “Perhaps Father Flynn thinks someone else has doubts”. She is such an intelligent woman, and I can only imagine that her panic – whatever its source, it was I think in full bloom before that sermon on doubt – has led her to a place of spiritual forgetfulness. How could she not know that, in any Catholic communuty, at any time, there would be many struggling human beings living in spiritual doubt and that a priest would either know this in very specific terms or would speak, in charity, to the unknown sufferer?

Father Flynn himself is increasingly moved as he gives this sermon of the comfort we can find even during times of doubt. And we see him later walk into (I think) the rectory where there is a stained glass window of God’s eye looking down from the heavens. Encountering the window clearly has some impact – a seemingly sobering impact – on Father Flynn.

I can add that up as the man is guilty of something and allow myself to follow Sr A’s lead about what that is. Or, as I am more inclined to do, I can add that up as the man is guilty of something……………as are we all, simply because we are human and, thus, imperfect (I am speaking here more from my social work training and life experience than from any theological or bibical position). And, in my experience, the process through which awareness of our failings becomes contrition often carries us through periods of shame and doubt and even anger that “Something should make us feel so bad”. These failings can be wholly undetectable to any human being because they can be failings of the heart and mind and soul just as easily and, perhaps, far more often than our failings are actions, words, public. I do not see how a Religious or priest can be in consecrated, intimate relationship with God and not believe that the relationship is an ever-dynamic one in which those very human, very frequent and very private failings are transparent to God. I would expect the same wary glance at the stained glass window whether Father Flynn did molest the boys OR he became aware of his abuse of the pulpit in the gossip sermon, in which he brilliantly and angrily batters St A and St James OR if he discovered himself some lack of charity and compassion for those sisters whose lives were changing in ways they disliked. I am not a great advocate for “Catholic guilt” but I do believe true contrition – and I use that as a general psychology and spiritual term – is often slow in coming. I think we often do not suffer **willingly*** the news of our own failings and harm to others and the healing misery of doubt and guilt and shame and desire for absolution and a new beginning bring us to that willingness that allows the growth of contrition and, when necessary, a desire for and intention of making reparation.

What I saw was that Father Flynn was living that process: awareness of some failing and awareness of God’s intimate presence in watchfulness and in comfort. What that failing was remains entirely up in the air for me. I am anxious for the day when a Catholic priest may again speak of persona failings and a struggle to overcome those failings without being accused of being gay or an abuser of children.

Last thought: blond kid. I think he was a budding Alpha male (blond, light-eyed, white, handsome, smart – still Alpha (fe)male qualities in the States. Imagine in NYC in 1964: Jews assimilating; Blacks integrating and there the blond kid is….as Aryan-looking as can be. The stuff of an Alpha male) . It seemed possible to me —————- given all that Sister A explained about the demographics of the parish and her expectation that the black kid **would** get hit and the later incident in the hallway when blond kid knocked down the black kid ————— that the blond kid yanked his arm away from the priest that morning because the priest had just singled out the black kid, touched him, tousled his hair, spoke affectionately and then reached out to touch the blond kid. My first thought was that the blond kid did not want to be singled out by a friend of the black kid; that the blond kid’s issue was that he was raised in racist times and he was a bully, in part due to his “preferred” appearance, etc., and did not want to be contaminated by or associated with the black kid.

I think Father Flynn’s response was ill-advised as a response to a bully and to racism and I think it was likely to backfire (and it did, as soon as the blond kid figured out that the black kid was on the outside again). Humiliating the blond kid about cleanliness, Fr Flynn’s subtle jabbing of his fingers at the kid in the gym…………all that seemed like the response of an adult who had a lot of anger toward bullies and handled it badly. But I didn’t buy it that it was an indicator that the kid had been molested.

Still wanting to get Sr A a spiritual director, I am

Jean

]]> By: Jean http://anunslife.org/2009/01/08/doubt-the-movie-discussion/#comment-39632 Jean Sat, 01 Aug 2009 15:01:44 +0000 http://anunslife.org/?p=1107#comment-39632 NCR - I think your response makes complete sense. The only caveat I would make is that allowing SUPERVISED access is one way of protecting innocent yet accused persons from destroyed lives as a consequence of malicious or simply mistaken accusations. In this day and age, because our children are so precious and parents appropriately want to protect them, the surest way to isolate one's "enemy" is to accuse them - explicitly or through suggestion - of inappropriate interest in or contact with children. Ask any social worker who has served on child abuse and neglect reporting hotlines about the role of spurious or false accusations in custody battles and family/neighborhood fights. It was one of the first things I learned to "listen for": what other agenda might be driving this dynamic that is NOT about the protection of children and is, instead, manipulating and exploiting the societal commitment to protecting children. It is also important, I think, to know that mistakes happen and supervised access can be one of getting a feel for that possibility: what social skills, etc., might this adult struggle with that could lead to awkward or problematic but wholly innocent interactions with children? Supervision can make those kinds of relationships both safe and positive for children and for that adult and, thus, contribute to the overall health of the neighborhood or community. I always remember the book "To Kill A Mockingbird" and the lesson Atticus Finch wants the children to learn: Boo Radley was, after all, a safe, gentle and contributing member of the neighborhood who loved the children deeply even though he was as afraid of them as they were of him. The adults in the community had the choice of either intensifying and reifying that fear OR helping the children ****and Boo**** understand how to build a safe and comfortable relationship. While our children deserve the utmost protection, years of experience have taught me that children and adults alike can lose out in significant ways if we do not remember that one of the oldest struggles for human beings is careful speech, careful hearing and even more careful discernment about what we are speaking or hearing and whose needs are served. Most of us have known "Boo Radleys" - some of us may, in fact, "Boo Radleys" and many, many, many of our communities are richer and more Christlike when we welcome them into our lives, with whatever accommodations are required to make it safe for our children and our "Boo Radleys". Jean NCR – I think your response makes complete sense. The only caveat I would make is that allowing SUPERVISED access is one way of protecting innocent yet accused persons from destroyed lives as a consequence of malicious or simply mistaken accusations. In this day and age, because our children are so precious and parents appropriately want to protect them, the surest way to isolate one’s “enemy” is to accuse them – explicitly or through suggestion – of inappropriate interest in or contact with children. Ask any social worker who has served on child abuse and neglect reporting hotlines about the role of spurious or false accusations in custody battles and family/neighborhood fights. It was one of the first things I learned to “listen for”: what other agenda might be driving this dynamic that is NOT about the protection of children and is, instead, manipulating and exploiting the societal commitment to protecting children. It is also important, I think, to know that mistakes happen and supervised access can be one of getting a feel for that possibility: what social skills, etc., might this adult struggle with that could lead to awkward or problematic but wholly innocent interactions with children? Supervision can make those kinds of relationships both safe and positive for children and for that adult and, thus, contribute to the overall health of the neighborhood or community. I always remember the book “To Kill A Mockingbird” and the lesson Atticus Finch wants the children to learn: Boo Radley was, after all, a safe, gentle and contributing member of the neighborhood who loved the children deeply even though he was as afraid of them as they were of him. The adults in the community had the choice of either intensifying and reifying that fear OR helping the children ****and Boo**** understand how to build a safe and comfortable relationship.

While our children deserve the utmost protection, years of experience have taught me that children and adults alike can lose out in significant ways if we do not remember that one of the oldest struggles for human beings is careful speech, careful hearing and even more careful discernment about what we are speaking or hearing and whose needs are served. Most of us have known “Boo Radleys” – some of us may, in fact, “Boo Radleys” and many, many, many of our communities are richer and more Christlike when we welcome them into our lives, with whatever accommodations are required to make it safe for our children and our “Boo Radleys”.

Jean

]]> By: NCR http://anunslife.org/2009/01/08/doubt-the-movie-discussion/#comment-39254 NCR Tue, 28 Jul 2009 05:12:16 +0000 http://anunslife.org/?p=1107#comment-39254 I spent some time in Catholic school, but my children were raised by the Salesian sisters throughout their elementary and middle school years and I love those sisters so much. They are wonderful people and I feel blessed to have had their influence in the raising of my children. I walked away from the movie with my own doubts about whether or not the priest molested the boys, and I have to admit that I didn't pick up half of the interesting nuances or interpretations that have been presented here. But what I did take away from the film was the reality that, where children are concerned, it only takes mere doubts for a mother (or in this case a mother superior) to go on the defensive. If my neighbor were accused of such wrongdoing, I wouldn't allow him (or her ) access to my children regardless of what a court of law determined. The mere "feathers" would be enough for me to look accusingly forevermore. Perhaps that is my "step away from God" but it would be a necessary step in order to ensure the protection of my children. After all, the only judge that matters is God and he sees and knows all, so who cares if I am wrong? My children are my only concern and I have to react in a way that most assuredly protects them -- even if it is unfair to my neighbor. Am I making any sense? (I love this forum.) I spent some time in Catholic school, but my children were raised by the Salesian sisters throughout their elementary and middle school years and I love those sisters so much. They are wonderful people and I feel blessed to have had their influence in the raising of my children.

I walked away from the movie with my own doubts about whether or not the priest molested the boys, and I have to admit that I didn’t pick up half of the interesting nuances or interpretations that have been presented here. But what I did take away from the film was the reality that, where children are concerned, it only takes mere doubts for a mother (or in this case a mother superior) to go on the defensive.

If my neighbor were accused of such wrongdoing, I wouldn’t allow him (or her ) access to my children regardless of what a court of law determined. The mere “feathers” would be enough for me to look accusingly forevermore. Perhaps that is my “step away from God” but it would be a necessary step in order to ensure the protection of my children. After all, the only judge that matters is God and he sees and knows all, so who cares if I am wrong? My children are my only concern and I have to react in a way that most assuredly protects them — even if it is unfair to my neighbor.

Am I making any sense?

(I love this forum.)

]]> By: Susan http://anunslife.org/2009/01/08/doubt-the-movie-discussion/#comment-39145 Susan Mon, 27 Jul 2009 00:41:20 +0000 http://anunslife.org/?p=1107#comment-39145 Hello- I am not a Catholic, but I am the daughter of a third grade teacher... and my mother and I just watched this movie together. We have been talking about it for hours, and finally, I looked it up on the web to see what others thought about it, and was thrilled to find this discussion. Sisters, while I have almost no exposure to nuns (Card-carrying Unitarian, here!) or to the Catholic faith, I have greatly enjoyed reading your views on the film, and on Sr. Aloysius, and the other characters. I found it interesting to read the commentary about the "stereotypical nun" as portrayed in so much of our media-- as an outsider, I can say that is something I never thought about, but I will consider it more carefully. I will now look at nuns differently. Your role is obviously more demanding than I ever knew! I personally found myself drawn to Sr. Aloysius' character. As the daughter of a teacher, I think caring for those who can not care for themselves, or, for those who are victimized, is a difficult challenge... We are forced to make judgements without the benefit of omniscience. Again, Sisters, I greatly appreciate being able to read along with you, and admire your candor. This film and discussion has made me think a great deal more about my faith, and my humanity. Thank you! Hello-
I am not a Catholic, but I am the daughter of a third grade teacher… and my mother and I just watched this movie together.

We have been talking about it for hours, and finally, I looked it up on the web to see what others thought about it, and was thrilled to find this discussion.

Sisters, while I have almost no exposure to nuns (Card-carrying Unitarian, here!) or to the Catholic faith, I have greatly enjoyed reading your views on the film, and on Sr. Aloysius, and the other characters.

I found it interesting to read the commentary about the “stereotypical nun” as portrayed in so much of our media– as an outsider, I can say that is something I never thought about, but I will consider it more carefully. I will now look at nuns differently. Your role is obviously more demanding than I ever knew!

I personally found myself drawn to Sr. Aloysius’ character. As the daughter of a teacher, I think caring for those who can not care for themselves, or, for those who are victimized, is a difficult challenge… We are forced to make judgements without the benefit of omniscience.

Again, Sisters, I greatly appreciate being able to read along with you, and admire your candor. This film and discussion has made me think a great deal more about my faith, and my humanity. Thank you!

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