Comments on: Living the Vow of Poverty in a Privileged Society http://anunslife.org/2009/09/22/vow-of-poverty-privileged-society/ Catholic Sisters and Nuns in Today's World Sat, 20 Mar 2010 00:58:08 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Sister Julie http://anunslife.org/2009/09/22/vow-of-poverty-privileged-society/#comment-51598 Sister Julie Thu, 24 Dec 2009 12:05:09 +0000 http://anunslife.org/?p=3853#comment-51598 Chris, Thank you for writing. Our prayers are with you as you continue to discern how God is calling you. We support you and keep you in our prayers. Chris, Thank you for writing. Our prayers are with you as you continue to discern how God is calling you. We support you and keep you in our prayers.

]]> By: Chris W http://anunslife.org/2009/09/22/vow-of-poverty-privileged-society/#comment-51560 Chris W Wed, 23 Dec 2009 21:35:50 +0000 http://anunslife.org/?p=3853#comment-51560 Hello, I have been reading your discussion, as I am pondering taking a personal Vow of Poverty. I am not Christian per se, although I feel the pull of "god" or "spirit" in my life more and more. What hits me the hardest is how I see the beautiful Earth being destroyed by so many people clamoring to be wealthy or live wealthy lives-- buying clothes, cars, exotic foods, gadgets, etc. I want to step out of this aspect of American culture. I want to live very simply on purpose, and use my talents, time, and possessions for the common good. I am grateful for the religious models of how to do this, how to choose poverty intentionally. I admire people, like Anonymous Novice and all of you, who have committed to the Vow of Poverty and you inspire me. Thank you. Hello, I have been reading your discussion, as I am pondering taking a personal Vow of Poverty. I am not Christian per se, although I feel the pull of “god” or “spirit” in my life more and more. What hits me the hardest is how I see the beautiful Earth being destroyed by so many people clamoring to be wealthy or live wealthy lives– buying clothes, cars, exotic foods, gadgets, etc. I want to step out of this aspect of American culture. I want to live very simply on purpose, and use my talents, time, and possessions for the common good. I am grateful for the religious models of how to do this, how to choose poverty intentionally. I admire people, like Anonymous Novice and all of you, who have committed to the Vow of Poverty and you inspire me. Thank you.

]]> By: Sister Julie http://anunslife.org/2009/09/22/vow-of-poverty-privileged-society/#comment-49345 Sister Julie Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:03:11 +0000 http://anunslife.org/?p=3853#comment-49345 Many thanks, Barb. Many thanks, Barb.

]]> By: Barb http://anunslife.org/2009/09/22/vow-of-poverty-privileged-society/#comment-49293 Barb Mon, 23 Nov 2009 22:57:28 +0000 http://anunslife.org/?p=3853#comment-49293 Re post #4 Curtis. Not only the poor suffer mental illness - mental illness can strike anyone at any time and is an increasing problem in our modern society and perhaps especially in the form of depression needing treatment which falls into the classification medically of "mental illness". Mental illness is like any other illness (cancer, diabetes, heart disease etc.) since the brain is an organ of the body and can become diseased or misfunction as can any other organ. Mental illness very often begins or originates as a disfunction of some kind in the brain (i.e. physical problem) which then affects mental functioning. So called mental illness is not selective - i.e. confined to the poor as a class of society. Some of the other social problems you have mentioned are not confined to be found mainly amongst the poor either. While God does not wish us to suffer in any way, He sometimes permits it since He can draw a greater good out of it (Catholic Theology of God's Permissive Will). Certainly poverty in health of any kind is not intrinsic to religious poverty, but some religious do become ill in some way including at times so called mental illness - and this can be offered in unity with The Cross and thus be made holy and redemptive. "The Mentally Ill - A Faithful Image of God" http://cathnews.com/news/602/doc/10wds2.htm Cardinal Javier President Pontifical Council for Health Pastoral Care - Rome Re post #4 Curtis. Not only the poor suffer mental illness – mental illness can strike anyone at any time and is an increasing problem in our modern society and perhaps especially in the form of depression needing treatment which falls into the classification medically of “mental illness”. Mental illness is like any other illness (cancer, diabetes, heart disease etc.) since the brain is an organ of the body and can become diseased or misfunction as can any other organ. Mental illness very often begins or originates as a disfunction of some kind in the brain (i.e. physical problem) which then affects mental functioning. So called mental illness is not selective – i.e. confined to the poor as a class of society.
Some of the other social problems you have mentioned are not confined to be found mainly amongst the poor either. While God does not wish us to suffer in any way, He sometimes permits it since He can draw a greater good out of it (Catholic Theology of God’s Permissive Will). Certainly poverty in health of any kind is not intrinsic to religious poverty, but some religious do become ill in some way including at times so called mental illness – and this can be offered in unity with The Cross and thus be made holy and redemptive.
“The Mentally Ill – A Faithful Image of God” http://cathnews.com/news/602/doc/10wds2.htm
Cardinal Javier
President Pontifical Council for Health Pastoral Care – Rome

]]> By: jean http://anunslife.org/2009/09/22/vow-of-poverty-privileged-society/#comment-46475 jean Thu, 15 Oct 2009 23:11:08 +0000 http://anunslife.org/?p=3853#comment-46475 Anonnov - Feminist women have fought through this same dynamic in the broader women's movement. The pioneers of the second wave of feminism (depending on which history you run with; I mean the women of the 60's, 70's) had to eventually quit being pissed off at the third wave women (the women who came of age in the world the second wave fought for and won and created). The second wavers eventually had to quit hamstringing the thirdwavers with guilt. They had to quit telling younger feminists that "if you had been through what we went through, you wouldn't be doing or saying and asking for this". Second wave, older feminists had to quit telling third wave, younger feminists that they were ungrateful, that younger women were wasting the earlier progress, that younger women did not know what they were talking about, that they did not understand feminism. That response from second wave feminists as the younger women stepped in their adult lives in a new era was destructuve. Understandable but destructive and divisive and fueled a lot of anti-feminism energy. All too often, the onus was placed on younger women not to speak their truths. And that meant that older feminists effectively treated their younger sisters as less than equal and reconstituted the oppressive dyanmic that called for the feminist revolution in the first place. Anonymous novice, I hope you will continue to voice your experience here. It is difficult to discern how to do just what you describe: "how to keep asking the questions, how to not be a thorn-in-the-side but exercise my own voice, to listen to my inner prophet… without judging others or leading them to judge themselves harshly, but with honesty about what I see, feel and need". My guess is that I can learn from you in that process. This is a profoundly difficult experience for me; you are living it every day and thus will have much to teach. My hope is that women religious will hear these questions , and that they will remind themselves - throughout and despite any pain or anger - that these questions are being asked by women of God who want to commit their lives to God and are seeking to do so in the year 2009. And that they will engage with us in dialogue that is not primarily defensive in nature and object and instead focuses on the intrinscally Catholic conflicts confronting many progressive women who are discerning and/or already novices. I personally think that a basic ground rule of that dialogue has to be an initial acknowledgement of the history of women religious in this country: their contributions, their sacrifices, their story. And then I think that story needs to be set to the side, used as reference but NEVER as filter for the new story that is today. My hope is this "second wave" of (progressive) women religious will not repeat this dynamic with the "third wave" of women religious now in novitiates and in discernment. My hope is that the second wave of (progressive) Catholic women will respond in truly feminist form to the third wave called to religious life....and that means hearing the new and different story without superimposing on it the old and familiar story. You are in my prayers, anonymous novice, and I will watch for you here. Jean Anonnov – Feminist women have fought through this same dynamic in the broader women’s movement. The pioneers of the second wave of feminism (depending on which history you run with; I mean the women of the 60’s, 70’s) had to eventually quit being pissed off at the third wave women (the women who came of age in the world the second wave fought for and won and created). The second wavers eventually had to quit hamstringing the thirdwavers with guilt. They had to quit telling younger feminists that “if you had been through what we went through, you wouldn’t be doing or saying and asking for this”. Second wave, older feminists had to quit telling third wave, younger feminists that they were ungrateful, that younger women were wasting the earlier progress, that younger women did not know what they were talking about, that they did not understand feminism.

That response from second wave feminists as the younger women stepped in their adult lives in a new era was destructuve. Understandable but destructive and divisive and fueled a lot of anti-feminism energy. All too often, the onus was placed on younger women not to speak their truths. And that meant that older feminists effectively treated their younger sisters as less than equal and reconstituted the oppressive dyanmic that called for the feminist revolution in the first place.

Anonymous novice, I hope you will continue to voice your experience here. It is difficult to discern how to do just what you describe: “how to keep asking the questions, how to not be a thorn-in-the-side but exercise my own voice, to listen to my inner prophet… without judging others or leading them to judge themselves harshly, but with honesty about what I see, feel and need”. My guess is that I can learn from you in that process. This is a profoundly difficult experience for me; you are living it every day and thus will have much to teach.

My hope is that women religious will hear these questions , and that they will remind themselves – throughout and despite any pain or anger – that these questions are being asked by women of God who want to commit their lives to God and are seeking to do so in the year 2009. And that they will engage with us in dialogue that is not primarily defensive in nature and object and instead focuses on the intrinscally Catholic conflicts confronting many progressive women who are discerning and/or already novices.

I personally think that a basic ground rule of that dialogue has to be an initial acknowledgement of the history of women religious in this country: their contributions, their sacrifices, their story.

And then I think that story needs to be set to the side, used as reference but NEVER as filter for the new story that is today.

My hope is this “second wave” of (progressive) women religious will not repeat this dynamic with the “third wave” of women religious now in novitiates and in discernment. My hope is that the second wave of (progressive) Catholic women will respond in truly feminist form to the third wave called to religious life….and that means hearing the new and different story without superimposing on it the old and familiar story.

You are in my prayers, anonymous novice, and I will watch for you here.

Jean

]]> By: anonymous novice http://anunslife.org/2009/09/22/vow-of-poverty-privileged-society/#comment-46471 anonymous novice Thu, 15 Oct 2009 21:55:05 +0000 http://anunslife.org/?p=3853#comment-46471 Thanks Jean and Jill for the thoughts and struggles shared and also for the article link. I haven't read it yet but I wanted to respond to thank you. I agree Jean that it's a challenging thing to even express because it can feel like begrudging these incredible older women a comfort which, if they desire it, I wouldn't want to question. BUT for those of us who are younger, who haven't lived through the kinds of things they have it's a different problem. For me personally, it's something which sits along side my "heart" knowledge that God calls me to this way of life and there is so much more to it than this particular issue. But it's there. In all the wonderousness God gifts us with it seems important also to acknowledge our humanness and, sometimes, weakness. If we don't ask the questions then who will? And how will we continue to be true to that which God calls us to? The big challenge for me is how to keep asking the questions, how to not be a thorn-in-the-side but exercise my own voice, to listen to my inner prophet... without judging others or leading them to judge themselves harshly, but with honesty about what I see, feel and need. Thanks Jean and Jill for the thoughts and struggles shared and also for the article link. I haven’t read it yet but I wanted to respond to thank you. I agree Jean that it’s a challenging thing to even express because it can feel like begrudging these incredible older women a comfort which, if they desire it, I wouldn’t want to question.
BUT for those of us who are younger, who haven’t lived through the kinds of things they have it’s a different problem.
For me personally, it’s something which sits along side my “heart” knowledge that God calls me to this way of life and there is so much more to it than this particular issue. But it’s there. In all the wonderousness God gifts us with it seems important also to acknowledge our humanness and, sometimes, weakness. If we don’t ask the questions then who will? And how will we continue to be true to that which God calls us to?
The big challenge for me is how to keep asking the questions, how to not be a thorn-in-the-side but exercise my own voice, to listen to my inner prophet… without judging others or leading them to judge themselves harshly, but with honesty about what I see, feel and need.

]]> By: jean http://anunslife.org/2009/09/22/vow-of-poverty-privileged-society/#comment-46295 jean Tue, 13 Oct 2009 20:30:34 +0000 http://anunslife.org/?p=3853#comment-46295 Sister Jill - I realize my last message may have seemed quite sharp. And I do most sincerely apoligize for that. My concerns about integrity are very much targeted at me, Jean, and not anyone else, though my comment below could certainly seem a clever - or not so clever - disparagement of others' decisions and integrity. That is not my intention nor, as the Gospel makes clear, would it be my job. That said, the saying "it's a heart thing, not a head thing" is something I have heard and read again and again in my encounters with nuns. At this point, I admit to a pretty consistent internal sigh of frustration at this point when it is offered by sisters as a response in difficult discussions about meanings and challenges in discernment of religious life in general. (It is meaningful to me that the phrase comes up here because I have encountered it again and again. It is seeming very much a "nun culture" thing). I have challenged myself: "is this the same meaning as when Father Joe, my parish priest and RCIA guy, said "would you say that your conversion back to the Church was a conversion of the heart or a conversion of the head?" Is that what you all are getting at? For me, my conversion was a "conversion of the heart" and I continue to experience daily conversions of the heart AND my spiritual progress and commitment and choice to sacrifice is very much a matter of an ongoing "conversion of the head". I think that is not uncommon. So, in that sense, the phrase does not speak to my experience of spiritual life: I don't think that spiritual life or discernment is "a heart thing, not a head thing". I think is a both/and thing, with the soul thrown in. :) And, I say this with all due respect, I most often hear that phrase when I or another discerner or a second sister or another Catholic perseveres in dialogue with a sister with challening questions or observations . It has come to be one of the most frustrating phrases in my experiences with nuns. Jean Sister Jill – I realize my last message may have seemed quite sharp. And I do most sincerely apoligize for that. My concerns about integrity are very much targeted at me, Jean, and not anyone else, though my comment below could certainly seem a clever – or not so clever – disparagement of others’ decisions and integrity. That is not my intention nor, as the Gospel makes clear, would it be my job.

That said, the saying “it’s a heart thing, not a head thing” is something I have heard and read again and again in my encounters with nuns. At this point, I admit to a pretty consistent internal sigh of frustration at this point when it is offered by sisters as a response in difficult discussions about meanings and challenges in discernment of religious life in general. (It is meaningful to me that the phrase comes up here because I have encountered it again and again. It is seeming very much a “nun culture” thing).

I have challenged myself: “is this the same meaning as when Father Joe, my parish priest and RCIA guy, said “would you say that your conversion back to the Church was a conversion of the heart or a conversion of the head?” Is that what you all are getting at? For me, my conversion was a “conversion of the heart” and I continue to experience daily conversions of the heart AND my spiritual progress and commitment and choice to sacrifice is very much a matter of an ongoing “conversion of the head”. I think that is not uncommon.

So, in that sense, the phrase does not speak to my experience of spiritual life: I don’t think that spiritual life or discernment is “a heart thing, not a head thing”. I think is a both/and thing, with the soul thrown in. :)

And, I say this with all due respect, I most often hear that phrase when I or another discerner or a second sister or another Catholic perseveres in dialogue with a sister with challening questions or observations . It has come to be one of the most frustrating phrases
in my experiences with nuns.

Jean

]]> By: jean http://anunslife.org/2009/09/22/vow-of-poverty-privileged-society/#comment-46272 jean Tue, 13 Oct 2009 16:16:33 +0000 http://anunslife.org/?p=3853#comment-46272 Sister Jill - Congratualtions on your sister's profession. Her words are beautiful. My only addition would be that integrity in my relationship with the Roman Catholic Church and its people, for me, is also a heart thing but often expressed in the words of the "head". Jean Sister Jill –

Congratualtions on your sister’s profession. Her words are beautiful.

My only addition would be that integrity in my relationship with the Roman Catholic Church and its people, for me, is also a heart thing but often expressed in the words of the “head”.

Jean

]]> By: Jill, ihm http://anunslife.org/2009/09/22/vow-of-poverty-privileged-society/#comment-46238 Jill, ihm Tue, 13 Oct 2009 02:11:15 +0000 http://anunslife.org/?p=3853#comment-46238 Jean, Our community just had a celebration of final vows a couple of days ago. When asked why she was professing final vows, my dear sister said something to the effect of, "its not a head decision, its a heart decision, and my heart says to go for it" and I don't know if this is any comfort, or more perplexing, for the more I read in this blog, and different posts and reactions to posts and reactions to reactions, etc., the more i realize there is so much more to religous life than we can really write. And it is all about the interior life, which is very very hard to explain, or express. Jean,

Our community just had a celebration of final vows a couple of days ago. When asked why she was professing final vows, my dear sister said something to the effect of, “its not a head decision, its a heart decision, and my heart says to go for it” and I don’t know if this is any comfort, or more perplexing, for the more I read in this blog, and different posts and reactions to posts and reactions to reactions, etc., the more i realize there is so much more to religous life than we can really write. And it is all about the interior life, which is very very hard to explain, or express.

]]> By: jean http://anunslife.org/2009/09/22/vow-of-poverty-privileged-society/#comment-46230 jean Tue, 13 Oct 2009 01:27:39 +0000 http://anunslife.org/?p=3853#comment-46230 Yes, Sister Jill. That is it. I think it a fabulous paper. Very challenging and very smart. I will scan later for the particular section in which Sr Laurie references the standard of living of many sisters as viewed by the sisters. There is a statement that is a good paraphrase of the experience "anonymous novice" describes. I was thrilled when I found this article because, at last, here was a nun willing to go on record with the reality that there are significant numbers of discerners (thus, Roman Catholics) who are not convinced by post-modern constructions of the vow of poverty in consecrated religious life in the Roman Catholic Church. Sr Sandra and others are, of course, entitled to these post-modern constructions of the counsels but so are others free to reject those constructions and it is intellectually infuriating to me - as a feminist (which can be, I think, legitimatey construed as an inherenetly post-modernist, po mo, framework and position) - to hear post-modernist, feminist thinkers refuse to - in a spirit of dialogue and community - acknowledge the validity of experiences and narratives that challenge their own. Such a refusa or failure is, in my mind, the antithesis of feminist engagement .........and Sister Laurie thrills me in her embodiment of feminist ethics in her scholarship and published dialogue. Her work has been a bright spot for me in me in these months, and it is remains a brick in the doorjamb of my reluctant and painful but undeniably increasing disaffection with progressive Roman Catholic congregations of Women Religious. Jean Yes, Sister Jill. That is it. I think it a fabulous paper. Very challenging and very smart. I will scan later for the particular section in which Sr Laurie references the standard of living of many sisters as viewed by the sisters. There is a statement that is a good paraphrase of the experience “anonymous novice” describes. I was thrilled when I found this article because, at last, here was a nun willing to go on record with the reality that there are significant numbers of discerners (thus, Roman Catholics) who are not convinced by post-modern constructions of the vow of poverty in consecrated religious life in the Roman Catholic Church. Sr Sandra and others are, of course, entitled to these post-modern constructions of the counsels but so are others free to reject those constructions and it is intellectually infuriating to me – as a feminist (which can be, I think, legitimatey construed as an inherenetly post-modernist, po mo, framework and position) – to hear post-modernist, feminist thinkers refuse to – in a spirit of dialogue and community – acknowledge the validity of experiences and narratives that challenge their own. Such a refusa or failure is, in my mind, the antithesis of feminist engagement ………and Sister Laurie thrills me in her embodiment of feminist ethics in her scholarship and published dialogue. Her work has been a bright spot for me in me in these months, and it is remains a brick in the doorjamb of my reluctant and painful but undeniably increasing disaffection with progressive Roman Catholic congregations of Women Religious.

Jean

]]> By: Jill, ihm http://anunslife.org/2009/09/22/vow-of-poverty-privileged-society/#comment-46229 Jill, ihm Tue, 13 Oct 2009 01:01:45 +0000 http://anunslife.org/?p=3853#comment-46229 Jean, is this the paper you are referring to? "A Marginal Life: Pursuing Holiness in the 21st Century" http://www.lcwr.org/lcwrannualassembly/2007assembly/Keynote.pdf Hope this helps, Jill Jean, is this the paper you are referring to?

“A Marginal Life: Pursuing Holiness in the 21st Century” http://www.lcwr.org/lcwrannualassembly/2007assembly/Keynote.pdf

Hope this helps,

Jill

]]> By: jean http://anunslife.org/2009/09/22/vow-of-poverty-privileged-society/#comment-46219 jean Mon, 12 Oct 2009 23:39:00 +0000 http://anunslife.org/?p=3853#comment-46219 THere is a Laurie Brink OP paper that addresses this as one generational issue among many others. Will try to find it. Jean THere is a Laurie Brink OP paper that addresses this as one generational issue among many others. Will try to find it. Jean

]]> By: jean http://anunslife.org/2009/09/22/vow-of-poverty-privileged-society/#comment-46216 jean Mon, 12 Oct 2009 23:16:40 +0000 http://anunslife.org/?p=3853#comment-46216 Correction: The only contemporary readings I have found that ...DO.... relieve me of my discomfort about this are Sister Sandra’s writings NOTED above, and even those simply provide me with a philosophical framework and language should I choose to close my mind to the ethical nature and seriousness of the question and the reality and discomfort of the facts that construct this dilemma for me and many others. Jean Correction:

The only contemporary readings I have found that …DO…. relieve me of my discomfort about this are Sister Sandra’s writings NOTED above, and even those simply provide me with a philosophical framework and language should I choose to close my mind to the ethical nature and seriousness of the question and the reality and discomfort of the facts that construct this dilemma for me and many others.

Jean

]]> By: jean http://anunslife.org/2009/09/22/vow-of-poverty-privileged-society/#comment-46215 jean Mon, 12 Oct 2009 23:13:05 +0000 http://anunslife.org/?p=3853#comment-46215 Dear anonymous novice - I admire that you are wrestling with this. It is a major concern for me in my discernment. The standard of living of many of the communities and sisters I have visited - the standard of living which would become my environment should I enter religious life with one of these communities - is very uncomfortable for me. I have lived a very comfortable life and have, for most of my adult life, struggled with the reality that - though my work as a social justice/activist social worker means I spend my work life with the poor - I spend my off-duty time enjoying a decidedly non-poor standard of living. I have spent the last ten years focused on trying to change my standard of living through a strategy of "downward mobility", only to discover that by entering "the convent" I am likely to find my standard of living improved again and the trajectory of my "mobility" decided upward again. It is very painful for me to say these things to older sisters, who gave up everything and did truly live in poverty. I begrudge them nothing and think that, if they wanted to sit and bon bons in their retirement years (which most do not want to do), the rest of us should just hush our mouths and leave them alone. My concern, then, is not with these much older sisters and their standard of living. My concern is with the standard of living that is lived by the women I would be sharing housing and ministry with and, thus, the standard of living that would be offered to and acceptable for me. I read or heard or spoke to some sister somewhere that was struggling to pair down: she had six bike helmets or pumps or locks or something and just couldn't bring herself to giev away five of them. I am still chewing on that in the context of a vow of poverty. How can the two co-exist? The struggle does not surprise me but how did six of anything make into a nun's dwelling? And does that mean I can take enter religious life, take a vow of poverty and keep my four tents (one for biking, one for car camping, one for backpacking and one for the beach)? And what about my three bikes (one a hybrid, one a mountain bike and one a town bike with a girl's bar between the handlebars and seat)? And what about my laptop and my desktop? I cannot square, for myself, an acceptance of the standard of living I am seeing and reading about in some communities with a public vow of poverty. The only contemporary readings I have found that do not relieve me of my discomfort about this are Sister Sandra's writings above, and even those simply provide me with language should I choose to close my mind to the seriousness of question and the discomfort of the facts that construct this dilemma. I will be glad of any resources any one can offer. You will be in my prayers. Jean Dear anonymous novice – I admire that you are wrestling with this. It is a major concern for me in my discernment. The standard of living of many of the communities and sisters I have visited – the standard of living which would become my environment should I enter religious life with one of these communities – is very uncomfortable for me. I have lived a very comfortable life and have, for most of my adult life, struggled with the reality that – though my work as a social justice/activist social worker means I spend my work life with the poor – I spend my off-duty time enjoying a decidedly non-poor standard of living. I have spent the last ten years focused on trying to change my standard of living through a strategy of “downward mobility”, only to discover that by entering “the convent” I am likely to find my standard of living improved again and the trajectory of my “mobility” decided upward again.

It is very painful for me to say these things to older sisters, who gave up everything and did truly live in poverty. I begrudge them nothing and think that, if they wanted to sit and bon bons in their retirement years (which most do not want to do), the rest of us should just hush our mouths and leave them alone.

My concern, then, is not with these much older sisters and their standard of living. My concern is with the standard of living that is lived by the women I would be sharing housing and ministry with and, thus, the standard of living that would be offered to and acceptable for me. I read or heard or spoke to some sister somewhere that was struggling to pair down: she had six bike helmets or pumps or locks or something and just couldn’t bring herself to giev away five of them. I am still chewing on that in the context of a vow of poverty. How can the two co-exist? The struggle does not surprise me but how did six of anything make into a nun’s dwelling? And does that mean I can take enter religious life, take a vow of poverty and keep my four tents (one for biking, one for car camping, one for backpacking and one for the beach)? And what about my three bikes (one a hybrid, one a mountain bike and one a town bike with a girl’s bar between the handlebars and seat)? And what about my laptop and my desktop?

I cannot square, for myself, an acceptance of the standard of living I am seeing and reading about in some communities with a public vow of poverty.

The only contemporary readings I have found that do not relieve me of my discomfort about this are Sister Sandra’s writings above, and even those simply provide me with language should I choose to close my mind to the seriousness of question and the discomfort of the facts that construct this dilemma.

I will be glad of any resources any one can offer. You will be in my prayers.

Jean

]]> By: anonymous novice http://anunslife.org/2009/09/22/vow-of-poverty-privileged-society/#comment-46204 anonymous novice Mon, 12 Oct 2009 21:32:39 +0000 http://anunslife.org/?p=3853#comment-46204 Dear Julie, Firstly, apologies for anonymity but you'll see why! I'm a second year novice and have been studying the vows and my congregations constitutions and I'm concerned at what feels like a disparity between what we vow and how we live. A desire to live simply and in solidarity with the poor is part of what bought me to religious life and I often feel let down in this regard. Before I entered I lived with like-minded friends and we were much more conscious of saving resources, such as food, money and clothing. Since entering I find that I'm less supported in these choices, not more. Sometimes that's about age and frailty in community but sometimes it seems just that we like being comfortable and maybe are reluctant to challenge each other. I've had lots of discussion with my novice director about it but am left with the sure knowledge that I was doing a better job of living like I had taken a vow of poverty BEFORE I lived with women who had! I've been looking for up to date resources, books or something to help me continue to flesh out the question. If you have any tips I'd be grateful (seems all the stuff we have was written pre-1990 and the world's changed a lot since then!) Thanks so much. Dear Julie,
Firstly, apologies for anonymity but you’ll see why!
I’m a second year novice and have been studying the vows and my congregations constitutions and I’m concerned at what feels like a disparity between what we vow and how we live. A desire to live simply and in solidarity with the poor is part of what bought me to religious life and I often feel let down in this regard. Before I entered I lived with like-minded friends and we were much more conscious of saving resources, such as food, money and clothing. Since entering I find that I’m less supported in these choices, not more. Sometimes that’s about age and frailty in community but sometimes it seems just that we like being comfortable and maybe are reluctant to challenge each other.
I’ve had lots of discussion with my novice director about it but am left with the sure knowledge that I was doing a better job of living like I had taken a vow of poverty BEFORE I lived with women who had!
I’ve been looking for up to date resources, books or something to help me continue to flesh out the question. If you have any tips I’d be grateful (seems all the stuff we have was written pre-1990 and the world’s changed a lot since then!)
Thanks so much.

]]> By: Sister Julie http://anunslife.org/2009/09/22/vow-of-poverty-privileged-society/#comment-45491 Sister Julie Thu, 01 Oct 2009 12:19:59 +0000 http://anunslife.org/?p=3853#comment-45491 Hi Linda, A good point about Francis ... and I think, if my memory is correct, the Franciscans had a difficult time moving from that original charism of Francis and Clare to becoming an "institution" ... I think all of our founders had a similar challenge ... one could say that for Jesus' movement that eventually turned into the Christian Church. Hi Linda, A good point about Francis … and I think, if my memory is correct, the Franciscans had a difficult time moving from that original charism of Francis and Clare to becoming an “institution” … I think all of our founders had a similar challenge … one could say that for Jesus’ movement that eventually turned into the Christian Church.

]]> By: Karen http://anunslife.org/2009/09/22/vow-of-poverty-privileged-society/#comment-45336 Karen Tue, 29 Sep 2009 16:05:50 +0000 http://anunslife.org/?p=3853#comment-45336 A follow-up to my previous post...I went on retreat this weekend and the Retreat Director runs a shelter for the homless in NY. After hearing him speak, I guess I have come to the realization that while we who are materially comfortable can choose to "live simply", the poor have no choice in most situations, and therein lies a chasm of difference. When your choices are removed and you are living in poverty day in and day out and see your children go without, it's different than choosing to give away stuff you don't really use anyway. It should make us pause and reflect. My question to myself now is this: is there an area of my life where I too have no choice about something and so in that place, I can identify with the poor from that perspective? I don't know - I'm thinking on it...but I wanted to share that thought. It just seems to me that while living more simply is a noble thing in and of itself and something I strive to do, my real call is to concretely help the poor. A follow-up to my previous post…I went on retreat this weekend and the Retreat Director runs a shelter for the homless in NY. After hearing him speak, I guess I have come to the realization that while we who are materially comfortable can choose to “live simply”, the poor have no choice in most situations, and therein lies a chasm of difference. When your choices are removed and you are living in poverty day in and day out and see your children go without, it’s different than choosing to give away stuff you don’t really use anyway. It should make us pause and reflect. My question to myself now is this: is there an area of my life where I too have no choice about something and so in that place, I can identify with the poor from that perspective? I don’t know – I’m thinking on it…but I wanted to share that thought. It just seems to me that while living more simply is a noble thing in and of itself and something I strive to do, my real call is to concretely help the poor.

]]> By: Linda McCullough http://anunslife.org/2009/09/22/vow-of-poverty-privileged-society/#comment-45220 Linda McCullough Mon, 28 Sep 2009 10:01:22 +0000 http://anunslife.org/?p=3853#comment-45220 I have to say, there is nothing like the sharp anxiety of not having health insurance or being evicted to focus one's mind on whether God is enough. St. Francis did seek to be destitute. I do not see how a modern institution could responsibly place its members in real jeopardy like this, but to know, feel and understand you have nothing but God is a truly bracing spiritual experience. I have to say, there is nothing like the sharp anxiety of not having health insurance or being evicted to focus one’s mind on whether God is enough. St. Francis did seek to be destitute. I do not see how a modern institution could responsibly place its members in real jeopardy like this, but to know, feel and understand you have nothing but God is a truly bracing spiritual experience.

]]> By: Melissan http://anunslife.org/2009/09/22/vow-of-poverty-privileged-society/#comment-45202 Melissan Mon, 28 Sep 2009 02:10:09 +0000 http://anunslife.org/?p=3853#comment-45202 I am looking at religious life and to me the vow of poverty means to live more simply and not have lots of extra "stuff" you don't need because "stuff" gets in the way of truly being poor in spirit and serving God and each other. There is also a certain freedom to not owning one's own house like I do now, but our society says everyone should own one. I think it means also valuing ourselves and others despite what we have and don't have. I am looking at religious life and to me the vow of poverty means to live more simply and not have lots of extra “stuff” you don’t need because “stuff” gets in the way of truly being poor in spirit and serving God and each other. There is also a certain freedom to not owning one’s own house like I do now, but our society says everyone should own one. I think it means also valuing ourselves and others despite what we have and don’t have.

]]> By: jean http://anunslife.org/2009/09/22/vow-of-poverty-privileged-society/#comment-45112 jean Sat, 26 Sep 2009 22:24:26 +0000 http://anunslife.org/?p=3853#comment-45112 Curtis- I love that quote from St. Francis de Sales. So much to consider. Thank you for that. It brings to mind the issue of how the poor have the capacity to accompany the non-poor in ways we cannot accompany them...and this area of choice about one's material poverty and, thus, the public nature of one's needs vs one's choices may be one of those, calling us (whomever we are) to mindfulness about the privileges that may be inherent in choice and the graces that may be inherent in a lack thereof. Such cool stuff. Jean Curtis- I love that quote from St. Francis de Sales. So much to consider. Thank you for that. It brings to mind the issue of how the poor have the capacity to accompany the non-poor in ways we cannot accompany them…and this area of choice about one’s material poverty and, thus, the public nature of one’s needs vs one’s choices may be one of those, calling us (whomever we are) to mindfulness about the privileges that may be inherent in choice and the graces that may be inherent in a lack thereof. Such cool stuff. Jean

]]> By: Karen http://anunslife.org/2009/09/22/vow-of-poverty-privileged-society/#comment-45026 Karen Fri, 25 Sep 2009 18:20:18 +0000 http://anunslife.org/?p=3853#comment-45026 Wow - you have all posted wonderful things to think about. I am a wife and mother, and I also struggle with the idea of poverty and what it means, both overall and to me personally. Before we married, my husband lived in a 3 room apartment and had very little funds, but he creatively made use of every inch of space he had and learned to buy only what he needed to live on one week at a time - no room for hoarding. We learned to make wonderful meals out of salt, pepper, olive oil, potatoes and an onion - those were some of our happiest memories. Now that we have a house and kids, I strive to be in the world, but not of the world, or a product of it, and what it tells me I "need" to have in order to be happy. When I feel like I'm being sucked in by the latest push for material comfort, I think back to those days where we had little and relied on God. Maybe that is the true benefit of poverty - both material and otherwise. Learning to reply on God one day at a time. Sometimes the poverty we experience is not material but emotional - going through a hard time and being "out of resources" to deal with it - and yet we go on to do so with the sustaining help of God, one day at a time. That is a kind of poverty many, many people live with who may have all the financial resources in the world. Like the widow in the Gospels who gave all she had, we are often called to give all we have - and then some. And we can only do that by the provision we get from God when we reach the end of our own human limits. Wow – you have all posted wonderful things to think about. I am a wife and mother, and I also struggle with the idea of poverty and what it means, both overall and to me personally. Before we married, my husband lived in a 3 room apartment and had very little funds, but he creatively made use of every inch of space he had and learned to buy only what he needed to live on one week at a time – no room for hoarding. We learned to make wonderful meals out of salt, pepper, olive oil, potatoes and an onion – those were some of our happiest memories. Now that we have a house and kids, I strive to be in the world, but not of the world, or a product of it, and what it tells me I “need” to have in order to be happy. When I feel like I’m being sucked in by the latest push for material comfort, I think back to those days where we had little and relied on God. Maybe that is the true benefit of poverty – both material and otherwise. Learning to reply on God one day at a time. Sometimes the poverty we experience is not material but emotional – going through a hard time and being “out of resources” to deal with it – and yet we go on to do so with the sustaining help of God, one day at a time. That is a kind of poverty many, many people live with who may have all the financial resources in the world. Like the widow in the Gospels who gave all she had, we are often called to give all we have – and then some. And we can only do that by the provision we get from God when we reach the end of our own human limits.

]]> By: Curtis http://anunslife.org/2009/09/22/vow-of-poverty-privileged-society/#comment-45024 Curtis Fri, 25 Sep 2009 17:44:10 +0000 http://anunslife.org/?p=3853#comment-45024 Jill, I agree with your comments. I do not mean to say that only the poor have disorders - that certainly is not the case. Perhaps I could phrase things better by saying that people who take a religious vow of poverty should be aware that they do not incur the <i>indignity</i>, <i>humiliation</i> or <i>abjection</i> of involuntary poverty. St. Francis de Sales wrote: <blockquote>Everybody respects and pities a pious hermit shivering in his worn-out garb; but let a poor gentleman or lady be in like case, and they are despised for it,—and so their poverty is abject.</blockquote> Jill,
I agree with your comments. I do not mean to say that only the poor have disorders – that certainly is not the case.

Perhaps I could phrase things better by saying that people who take a religious vow of poverty should be aware that they do not incur the indignity, humiliation or abjection of involuntary poverty.

St. Francis de Sales wrote:

Everybody respects and pities a pious hermit shivering in his worn-out garb; but let a poor gentleman or lady be in like case, and they are despised for it,—and so their poverty is abject.

]]> By: Jill, ihm http://anunslife.org/2009/09/22/vow-of-poverty-privileged-society/#comment-45011 Jill, ihm Fri, 25 Sep 2009 12:12:19 +0000 http://anunslife.org/?p=3853#comment-45011 Sr J: see you at the Mothership :) Jean: I appreciate your insights, especially the 'glass house'. I have to stop retreating into lurkerdom! And truly, this is one of the aspects of religious life that really freaks me out...life in a glass house. [Oh yeah, I should mention, I am a novice with the Sisters, Servants of the Immaculate Heart of Mary…and taking a long, deep look at those vows these days!] To take public vows, in this church, at this moment in history is just a little bit scary. And to choose poverty is quite a different thing than the poverties I mentioned earlier. I have plenty of ‘food for thought’ and will ponder some of this today… Peace! Sr J: see you at the Mothership :)

Jean: I appreciate your insights, especially the ‘glass house’. I have to stop retreating into lurkerdom! And truly, this is one of the aspects of religious life that really freaks me out…life in a glass house. [Oh yeah, I should mention, I am a novice with the Sisters, Servants of the Immaculate Heart of Mary…and taking a long, deep look at those vows these days!] To take public vows, in this church, at this moment in history is just a little bit scary. And to choose poverty is quite a different thing than the poverties I mentioned earlier.

I have plenty of ‘food for thought’ and will ponder some of this today…

Peace!

]]> By: Sister Julie http://anunslife.org/2009/09/22/vow-of-poverty-privileged-society/#comment-44892 Sister Julie Thu, 24 Sep 2009 10:12:37 +0000 http://anunslife.org/?p=3853#comment-44892 Will be tuning back in later this evening. Am off to Monroe to the IHM Mothership. Will keep each one of you in my prayers and respond more later. Blessings. Will be tuning back in later this evening. Am off to Monroe to the IHM Mothership. Will keep each one of you in my prayers and respond more later. Blessings.

]]> By: jean http://anunslife.org/2009/09/22/vow-of-poverty-privileged-society/#comment-44867 jean Thu, 24 Sep 2009 05:25:08 +0000 http://anunslife.org/?p=3853#comment-44867 Jill - I agree with both you and Curtis. One significant privilege of the non-poor is that we do not live in glass houses and people who are materially poor do. Material poverty in this society tends to destroy privacy and, with it, dignity and authentically free will are all too often destroyed as well. Just one example: It has long been been an outrage to me that residential services (for adults living with mental illnesses, developmental disabilities, homelessness, addiction, domestic violence, etc.) often encode an expectation and demand that "clients" will be better humans than most of the rest of us can imagine being on our most idealistic and self-satisfied days. Why should a messy 50 year woman be able to graciously share a bedroom with an aggressive neat freak (or vice versa)? It would make me crazy and I imagine I would not handle it very well much of the time. I can imagine getting a little passively aggressive in my messiness in response to an aggressive neat freak in my bedroom (!!!!), but this person with Down's Syndrome or schizophrenia or in need of shelter for any number of reasons is going to get dragged to a meeting with ten professionals who are going to carry on about it in intrinsically moralistic and humiliating terms...............and then those professionals are going to go home and engage in their ongoing and often ugly fight with their spouses about the exact same kind of stuff? I've been doing this for 20 years and there is progress, but it still outrages me that the material poverty of so many people has the result of making them poor in so many other ways. (I am always secretly a little glad when some client gets fed up with their assh-le of a roommate and "acts out" - trashes that person's side of the room or something like that - because their poverty prevents them from simply moving out or kicking the roommate out. I always want to say, "I wouldn't want to live with that jerk either!", just to honor that perfectly natural and normal emotional response to sharing intimate space and time with someone we do not like. I cannot imagine what it would be like not to have the material privilege of determining who lives in your bedroom with you and then having a bunch of people sitting around a meeting table, effectively shaking their their fingers at you! I can tell you that those people would see at least one of my fingers! :) :) :) It makes me laugh just to think of THAT meeting! So, Jill, I agree: material poverty in this country often builds a glass house around your life. You know Paul Simon's song "Graceland" with these lyrics? "And I see losing love/Is like a window in your heart/Everybody sees you're blown apart/Everybody feels the wind blow". I would riff on it as one of my ways of describing what material poverty and need does to people and their lives if only I could figure out how to speak of involuntary material poverty with the same spare poetry with which Simon that speaks of "losing love". And, in a very real and Gospel sense, I think involuntary material poverty is the result of losing the love of your neighbor, your community. And, Curtis, I also agree that involuntary material poverty is more grinding when one has other struggles, even those that we know are often faciliatated by the structural failures of love that abandon people (who are very often intrinsically and formerly healthy and functional people) to destitute poverty. Sister Julie and everyone else, thank you again for this great stuff. Jean Jean Jill – I agree with both you and Curtis. One significant privilege of the non-poor is that we do not live in glass houses and people who are materially poor do. Material poverty in this society tends to destroy privacy and, with it, dignity and authentically free will are all too often destroyed as well.

Just one example: It has long been been an outrage to me that residential services (for adults living with mental illnesses, developmental disabilities, homelessness, addiction, domestic violence, etc.) often encode an expectation and demand that “clients” will be better humans than most of the rest of us can imagine being on our most idealistic and self-satisfied days. Why should a messy 50 year woman be able to graciously share a bedroom with an aggressive neat freak (or vice versa)? It would make me crazy and I imagine I would not handle it very well much of the time. I can imagine getting a little passively aggressive in my messiness in response to an aggressive neat freak in my bedroom (!!!!), but this person with Down’s Syndrome or schizophrenia or in need of shelter for any number of reasons is going to get dragged to a meeting with ten professionals who are going to carry on about it in intrinsically moralistic and humiliating terms……………and then those professionals are going to go home and engage in their ongoing and often ugly fight with their spouses about the exact same kind of stuff? I’ve been doing this for 20 years and there is progress, but it still outrages me that the material poverty of so many people has the result of making them poor in so many other ways. (I am always secretly a little glad when some client gets fed up with their assh-le of a roommate and “acts out” – trashes that person’s side of the room or something like that – because their poverty prevents them from simply moving out or kicking the roommate out. I always want to say, “I wouldn’t want to live with that jerk either!”, just to honor that perfectly natural and normal emotional response to sharing intimate space and time with someone we do not like. I cannot imagine what it would be like not to have the material privilege of determining who lives in your bedroom with you and then having a bunch of people sitting around a meeting table, effectively shaking their their fingers at you! I can tell you that those people would see at least one of my fingers! :) :) :) It makes me laugh just to think of THAT meeting!

So, Jill, I agree: material poverty in this country often builds a glass house around your life. You know Paul Simon’s song “Graceland” with these lyrics?

“And I see losing love/Is like a window in your heart/Everybody sees you’re blown apart/Everybody feels the wind blow”.

I would riff on it as one of my ways of describing what material poverty and need does to people and their lives if only I could figure out how to speak of involuntary material poverty with the same spare poetry with which Simon that speaks of “losing love”. And, in a very real and Gospel sense, I think involuntary material poverty is the result of losing the love of your neighbor, your community.

And, Curtis, I also agree that involuntary material poverty is more grinding when one has other struggles, even those that we know are often faciliatated by the structural failures of love that abandon people (who are very often intrinsically and formerly healthy and functional people) to destitute poverty.

Sister Julie and everyone else, thank you again for this great stuff.

Jean

Jean

]]> By: Jill, ihm http://anunslife.org/2009/09/22/vow-of-poverty-privileged-society/#comment-44857 Jill, ihm Thu, 24 Sep 2009 02:08:37 +0000 http://anunslife.org/?p=3853#comment-44857 This is a response to some of the points made by Curtis. If I understand your post correctly, you are making a direct correlation between poverty & destitution (i.e., material poverty) and disorderedness. My experience in working for and with, and on behalf of materially poor and homeless individuals has taught me otherwise. I consider myself middle class, so I am going out on a limb here…over the past 10 years, I have worked in social services in a variety of areas (including: a foster care agency, a soup kitchen, a food pantry/clothing closet, employment support, adult education, disaster relief, advocacy for homelessness), and I’ve come to learn that there is no more 'disorder' (i.e., abuse, addiction, debt, destructive relationships, mental illness, poor role models, etc., etc, etc) among the materially poor than there is among middle and upper-class individuals. A big difference is, those with more resources (money, but also education, power, connections, understandings of systems (social, political, etc) and how to influence them)…can hide it better, or engage in more socially acceptable forms. A simple example: I, as a middle-class person can be as messy as I want…and hire someone to clean up after me. We bemoan welfare recipients, yet look at the recent federal funds allocated to bail out the banks. There are elements of personal choice & responsibility at play, and yet we also need to look at social structures that support patterns of abuse, addiction, etc. that are part of economic poverty. When schools receive inadequate funding, jobs do not pay living wages (if in fact there is a job to be had), public transportation systems are unreliable, neighborhoods have nowhere to buy fresh produce, and health care is non-existent….these are all constructs of our existing social-political structures in the US, and I think it’s the responsibility of those of us who can to advocate on behalf of the poor, to have access to the institutions we have benefited from. Curtis, I agree with your statement, “God does not wish anyone to have these things. “ I truly believe that God desires good for all of us...and this world of brokenness and beauty. Jill (who is stepping down from her soap box now…thanks for bearing with me!) This is a response to some of the points made by Curtis. If I understand your post correctly, you are making a direct correlation between poverty & destitution (i.e., material poverty) and disorderedness.

My experience in working for and with, and on behalf of materially poor and homeless individuals has taught me otherwise. I consider myself middle class, so I am going out on a limb here…over the past 10 years, I have worked in social services in a variety of areas (including: a foster care agency, a soup kitchen, a food pantry/clothing closet, employment support, adult education, disaster relief, advocacy for homelessness), and I’ve come to learn that there is no more ‘disorder’ (i.e., abuse, addiction, debt, destructive relationships, mental illness, poor role models, etc., etc, etc) among the materially poor than there is among middle and upper-class individuals. A big difference is, those with more resources (money, but also education, power, connections, understandings of systems (social, political, etc) and how to influence them)…can hide it better, or engage in more socially acceptable forms. A simple example: I, as a middle-class person can be as messy as I want…and hire someone to clean up after me. We bemoan welfare recipients, yet look at the recent federal funds allocated to bail out the banks.

There are elements of personal choice & responsibility at play, and yet we also need to look at social structures that support patterns of abuse, addiction, etc. that are part of economic poverty. When schools receive inadequate funding, jobs do not pay living wages (if in fact there is a job to be had), public transportation systems are unreliable, neighborhoods have nowhere to buy fresh produce, and health care is non-existent….these are all constructs of our existing social-political structures in the US, and I think it’s the responsibility of those of us who can to advocate on behalf of the poor, to have access to the institutions we have benefited from.

Curtis, I agree with your statement, “God does not wish anyone to have these things. “ I truly believe that God desires good for all of us…and this world of brokenness and beauty.

Jill
(who is stepping down from her soap box now…thanks for bearing with me!)

]]> By: Jeannie http://anunslife.org/2009/09/22/vow-of-poverty-privileged-society/#comment-44784 Jeannie Wed, 23 Sep 2009 02:13:23 +0000 http://anunslife.org/?p=3853#comment-44784 You all have given me some serious food for thought. I am currently discerning and never really gave as much thought to the vow of poverty as I did to leaving my family. I realize that purging oneself of the things that can hinder us is helpful. It feels good to give the things we don't need to someone who truly needs them. I am currently studying to be a teacher and when my family asked what I wanted for Christmas, I immediately said school supplies. An elementary school teacher can never have too many school supplies to provide for her kids in need. I agree with what everyone said about how a vow of poverty is not a vow of destitution, but rather a vow to live a simple life. Thanks again for the wonderful posts. You all have given me some serious food for thought. I am currently discerning and never really gave as much thought to the vow of poverty as I did to leaving my family. I realize that purging oneself of the things that can hinder us is helpful. It feels good to give the things we don’t need to someone who truly needs them. I am currently studying to be a teacher and when my family asked what I wanted for Christmas, I immediately said school supplies. An elementary school teacher can never have too many school supplies to provide for her kids in need. I agree with what everyone said about how a vow of poverty is not a vow of destitution, but rather a vow to live a simple life. Thanks again for the wonderful posts.

]]> By: Another Sister Julie, CSSF http://anunslife.org/2009/09/22/vow-of-poverty-privileged-society/#comment-44779 Another Sister Julie, CSSF Wed, 23 Sep 2009 00:37:50 +0000 http://anunslife.org/?p=3853#comment-44779 I just moved to our provincial home in New Mexico after living 25 years in California where all you needed was a car, a station wagon or a pick up truck to haul your belongings. That made it far too easy to accumulate. I had to do some serious weeding for this move, yet I <i>still</i> have far too much crappola, esp clothes and craft items. The crafts I can justify bc I am now the coordinator of our Ladies' Auxilliary and they have a craft fair next month. But the clothes! I do have a pile for donations, and any time I see a sister close to my size, I put a thing or two in her hands. (I've already dressed my neighbor for her jubilee <i>next year!</i>) I guess the question of poverty boils down to this--<i>Do I own my things or do my things own me?</i> Yeah, I have to sit down with that poverty question and have a serious "Come to Jesus" event with my vows vs. my stuff. I just moved to our provincial home in New Mexico after living 25 years in California where all you needed was a car, a station wagon or a pick up truck to haul your belongings. That made it far too easy to accumulate. I had to do some serious weeding for this move, yet I still have far too much crappola, esp clothes and craft items. The crafts I can justify bc I am now the coordinator of our Ladies’ Auxilliary and they have a craft fair next month. But the clothes! I do have a pile for donations, and any time I see a sister close to my size, I put a thing or two in her hands. (I’ve already dressed my neighbor for her jubilee next year!)

I guess the question of poverty boils down to this–Do I own my things or do my things own me? Yeah, I have to sit down with that poverty question and have a serious “Come to Jesus” event with my vows vs. my stuff.

]]> By: jean http://anunslife.org/2009/09/22/vow-of-poverty-privileged-society/#comment-44765 jean Tue, 22 Sep 2009 19:40:46 +0000 http://anunslife.org/?p=3853#comment-44765 Curtis et al - I am grateful for this company. Curtis, I am struck immediately by your comment that we need to stop thinking about a vow of poverty as placing ourselves in the worst possible circumstances. I agree. That is simplistic and may, in fact, be the result of a confusion of ascetism with poverty or a romanticizing of poverty that denies the inherent injustice and cruelty of poverty, which we are called to eradicate. i think it is essential, however, to realize that in the United States, in particular, privilege accrues stealthily and its power can spread like a cancer in our lives and communities, corrupting our vision, inviting us into the forgetfulness of God our Neighbor. And it is more that wealth of privilege that concerns me, with the household symbols of it functioning most powerfully as sirens, our own Lorelei of the Rhine River with their beautiful music luring and lulling seafarers into the rocks of privilege and its encroaching construction, embedding and perpetuation. On the run. THANK YOU SISTER JULIE AND ALL FOR THIS COMPANY. MORE PLEASE. Jean Curtis et al – I am grateful for this company. Curtis, I am struck immediately by your comment that we need to stop thinking about a vow of poverty as placing ourselves in the worst possible circumstances. I agree. That is simplistic and may, in fact, be the result of a confusion of ascetism with poverty or a romanticizing of poverty that denies the inherent injustice and cruelty of poverty, which we are called to eradicate. i think it is essential, however, to realize that in the United States, in particular, privilege accrues stealthily and its power can spread like a cancer in our lives and communities, corrupting our vision, inviting us into the forgetfulness of God our Neighbor. And it is more that wealth of privilege that concerns me, with the household symbols of it functioning most powerfully as sirens, our own Lorelei of the Rhine River with their beautiful music luring and lulling seafarers into the rocks of privilege and its encroaching construction, embedding and perpetuation. On the run. THANK YOU SISTER JULIE AND ALL FOR THIS COMPANY. MORE PLEASE. Jean

]]> By: Curtis http://anunslife.org/2009/09/22/vow-of-poverty-privileged-society/#comment-44761 Curtis Tue, 22 Sep 2009 18:09:33 +0000 http://anunslife.org/?p=3853#comment-44761 Since the evangelical vows are ordered towards God, they tend to lack certain defects that their naturally-occurring, disordered counterparts tend to develop. True destitution consists in more than just a lack of possessions. The truly poor in our communities tend to have substance addictions, to be heavily in debt, to be in destructive relationships, to have mental illnesses, to have a lack of role models, resources and support; their habitations are dirty and vermin-infested, and a host of other things. These things warrant our compassion but they are not to be imitated. God does not wish anyone to have these things. They arise from the fallen state of our world and are not part of the evangelical call to poverty. Even St.Anthony in the desert, without a single possession in the world, does not know the crushing poverty of a single mom, addicted to alcohol, an abusive boyfriend, kids to feed, etc... So, we do need to stop thinking of a vow of poverty as placing ourselves in the worse possible condition in life, as though this was an end in itself, but as rightly ordering our poverty away from self-interest and towards God alone. Since the evangelical vows are ordered towards God, they tend to lack certain defects that their naturally-occurring, disordered counterparts tend to develop. True destitution consists in more than just a lack of possessions. The truly poor in our communities tend to have substance addictions, to be heavily in debt, to be in destructive relationships, to have mental illnesses, to have a lack of role models, resources and support; their habitations are dirty and vermin-infested, and a host of other things. These things warrant our compassion but they are not to be imitated. God does not wish anyone to have these things. They arise from the fallen state of our world and are not part of the evangelical call to poverty.

Even St.Anthony in the desert, without a single possession in the world, does not know the crushing poverty of a single mom, addicted to alcohol, an abusive boyfriend, kids to feed, etc…

So, we do need to stop thinking of a vow of poverty as placing ourselves in the worse possible condition in life, as though this was an end in itself, but as rightly ordering our poverty away from self-interest and towards God alone.

]]> By: Michael Hallman http://anunslife.org/2009/09/22/vow-of-poverty-privileged-society/#comment-44758 Michael Hallman Tue, 22 Sep 2009 17:00:03 +0000 http://anunslife.org/?p=3853#comment-44758 Thank you, Sister, for this post. This has been one of the things I have been struggling with myself in my very early days of religious life. I tend to long for a more austere observance of the vow of poverty, but then I find myself very easily appreciating the comforts that I have. The big joke with me has always been that I frequently tell the Augustinians that I'm looking forward to the vow of poverty because I can use the raise :-P The other thing, of course, and this is I think part of what you were getting at, is that the vow of poverty doesn't necessarily mean a vow of destitution (not even for Franciscans!). The main thing is a matter of simplicity that liberates the religious to be able to be devoted entirely to service of the Gospel. St. Augustine based his rule of community living around that passage of Acts that you referenced. It had a tremendous effect on him. I think when we consider "each according to his or her needs," it's helpful to think not only in terms of temporal needs (i.e. the sharing of goods), but also spiritual needs. Perhaps for some people a stricter observance of the vow of poverty is a spiritual benefit for them; perhaps for others it actually is spiritually harmful. Each according to his or her needs. Maybe the spiritual component of that is something we can reflect on as we look at the future of our religious orders. Hope you're doing well. Thanks again for another insightful post :) Thank you, Sister, for this post. This has been one of the things I have been struggling with myself in my very early days of religious life. I tend to long for a more austere observance of the vow of poverty, but then I find myself very easily appreciating the comforts that I have. The big joke with me has always been that I frequently tell the Augustinians that I’m looking forward to the vow of poverty because I can use the raise :-P

The other thing, of course, and this is I think part of what you were getting at, is that the vow of poverty doesn’t necessarily mean a vow of destitution (not even for Franciscans!). The main thing is a matter of simplicity that liberates the religious to be able to be devoted entirely to service of the Gospel.

St. Augustine based his rule of community living around that passage of Acts that you referenced. It had a tremendous effect on him. I think when we consider “each according to his or her needs,” it’s helpful to think not only in terms of temporal needs (i.e. the sharing of goods), but also spiritual needs. Perhaps for some people a stricter observance of the vow of poverty is a spiritual benefit for them; perhaps for others it actually is spiritually harmful. Each according to his or her needs. Maybe the spiritual component of that is something we can reflect on as we look at the future of our religious orders.

Hope you’re doing well. Thanks again for another insightful post :)

]]> By: Sister Rosangela http://anunslife.org/2009/09/22/vow-of-poverty-privileged-society/#comment-44753 Sister Rosangela Tue, 22 Sep 2009 15:02:07 +0000 http://anunslife.org/?p=3853#comment-44753 Poverty is hard to define in today's world. As a religious Sister I definitely have more than our Sisters did years ago. The question we need to ask is how attached am I to the things I have? Can I share or give up what I have? I read one time that it is not how much we give away, but how much we keep that makes a difference. In other words I may have only a few things but be very attached to them. So it is not the amount but the willingness to let go. God wants to fill us with himself so we must be empty of ourselves. It is hard to do in today's world because there are so many things available to us. Poverty is hard to define in today’s world. As a religious Sister I definitely have more than our Sisters did years ago. The question we need to ask is how attached am I to the things I have? Can I share or give up what I have? I read one time that it is not how much we give away, but how much we keep that makes a difference. In other words I may have only a few things but be very attached to them. So it is not the amount but the willingness to let go. God wants to fill us with himself so we must be empty of ourselves. It is hard to do in today’s world because there are so many things available to us.

]]> By: Sr. Liza http://anunslife.org/2009/09/22/vow-of-poverty-privileged-society/#comment-44751 Sr. Liza Tue, 22 Sep 2009 14:23:59 +0000 http://anunslife.org/?p=3853#comment-44751 I went to an excellent talk given by Sr. Dianne Bergant on religious life. But that is for another time. Back to the vow of poverty. In my heart, I don't see poverty as a good state. Actually, society is called to level the plain and reduce incidents of poverty. That is the insight on poverty from a world perspective. But our vow of poverty is more as a vow of simplicity and a daily call to use resources in a way that many will benefit. Kind of like the early Apostles. They would work, do service, inherit goods, but would bring those goods to the greater group to be distibuted according the needs, not wants. That is how I see our vow of poverty, being very savy about how we use our resources and working hard to make sure that not only us, but many around us have what they need for daily basic cuality of living. What other insights are there? I went to an excellent talk given by Sr. Dianne Bergant on religious life. But that is for another time.

Back to the vow of poverty. In my heart, I don’t see poverty as a good state. Actually, society is called to level the plain and reduce incidents of poverty. That is the insight on poverty from a world perspective.

But our vow of poverty is more as a vow of simplicity and a daily call to use resources in a way that many will benefit.

Kind of like the early Apostles. They would work, do service, inherit goods, but would bring those goods to the greater group to be distibuted according the needs, not wants. That is how I see our vow of poverty, being very savy about how we use our resources and working hard to make sure that not only us, but many around us have what they need for daily basic cuality of living.

What other insights are there?

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