AS076 Ask Sister – going on retreat, detachment from (YIKES) gadgets, nun-fiction writer seeks authentic religious life, and more!

Sister Maxine  
Ask sister Podcast Episode 76, June 23 2011.

Sister Julie  
Broadcasting live from the studio of A Nun's Life Ministry, this is Ask Sister, a program where we take your questions about prayer, faith, community, ministry, and everything in between. I'm Sister Julie.

Sister Maxine  
And I'm Sister Maxine.

Sister Julie  
Today on Ask Sister, we're going to talk a little bit about retreats, how, when and why to take them.

Sister Maxine  
And we'll take a question about detachment and does it mean that you have to let go of things that you really, really like? Then our next question: what to do if you have a call to religious life, but you don't know if you really want to go there? Oo, can be unsettling.

Sister Julie  
Yeah, that that could be. I've been there.

Sister Maxine  
So we will talk to the expert on that. And finally, we have another novelist who's gotten in touch with us. And she is asking us about her upcoming work of nunfiction.

Sister Julie  
Nonfiction?

Sister Maxine  
That would be NUNfiction. She wants to render her nun character as authentically as possible.

Sister Julie  
You know, I appreciate that. Like, I'm all for fiction, but I'm all for giving, especially nun characters, a real look and feel, you know, none of that little fancy schmancy stuff. That's not real.

Sister Maxine  
And we love those writers' questions. We love writers who are concerned with that and really want to do that.

Sister Julie  
So we are delighted that you can join us for today's show. During the live broadcast, you can ask your questions and share your thoughts in the chat room at anunslife.org/live.

Sister Maxine  
So let's begin by taking a moment to be present to God and one another, knowing that all of our questions, ideas, and inspirations are rooted in God. Blessed are you oh God, who has filled our world with wonder, and created us to imagine, to question and to ponder. We lift up our hearts in gratitude for your goodness and love. Amen.

Sister Julie  
Amen. Well, Sister, you're ready to get started.

Sister Maxine  
I'm ready. We've got questions here that I think are going to be great.

Sister Julie  
And you know, we take a few ahead of time because people are emailing us, sending us carrier pigeon messages, leaving a message with Sister Mary at anunslife.org/contact. So we get these all during the week. So we pick a few of them to start off the show. But we are always glad to entertain your questions and ideas during the live show.

Sister Maxine  
So our first question comes from Maria, who's across the pond, just outside of Birmingham in the United Kingdom. Long distance message.

Sister Julie  
It is that was a long carrier pigeon ride.

Sister Maxine  
She said, "I'm wanting to go for a retreat somewhere. Could you let me know where this is possible?" And she adds, "I remember how it felt spending time with sisters who used to have a convent down the road. It was just an 'out of this world feeling.'" And she said, "I would love to go just for myself, because I've never forgotten that feeling."

Sister Julie  
Well, it's hard to forget an out of this world feeling.

Sister Maxine  
But it's nice that she did experience that. I think it's nice that she experienced it around the nuns.

Sister Julie  
Yeah, I would think that was a good thing.

Sister Maxine  
I think that's a good thing. And she desires to feel that again.

Sister Julie  
I love how you phrase this, Maria, about wanting to tap into that feeling. Again, a lot of times, we think about going on retreat just to get away from everything, leave everything, just drop everything. But I love how you phrase it about wanting to tap into that feeling that you had when you were with those sisters at that time. And that this is something that you recognize that you need to do just for yourself.

Sister Maxine  
And many people will go on retreat for that feeling of being in the presence of God--even though we're always in the presence of God, sometimes we're more able to be present to God. And to be alone with God. I think that's a very common reason to be on a retreat.

Sister Julie  
Very much so. So it's funny because in the secular world, actually not the secular world; I mean, everything is sacred. So there really is no secular world. But I should say more specifically, in the corporate world, for example, there's a lot of talk about retreats and even in corporations and businesses, there's a recognition that people need to get away in a chance to regroup even though the focus of that might not be to get closer to God. But there is a recognition that human beings are built such that we need a little space, a little time to regroup.

Sister Maxine  
Jesus tells us that he had a busy ministry. He was going all over the place working with different people, crowds were chasing him sometimes. And you know, he talks about it. In Luke 5, for example, he withdraws to a deserted place to pray, and he knows that he needs to renew his own energy, so he can go back out there again, engage fully with the world, and engage with all those people who are who are turning to him.

Sister Julie  
And I love that passage, because that's, I think, one of the center places where we get that imagery of going to the desert to be alone. I mean, that's actually one of the foundations of religious life is the experience of people going out into the desert to be alone. Hence, you know, monasticism, the Benedictine tradition, St. Benedict, St. Scholastica. So there's that deep desire that we have within ourselves. Sometimes I don't think we can articulate it, like, "I need to go and get closer to God." But it's a sense that we feel in every fiber of our being, that we need something different, we need something more. And Maria, you had a great experience at one time earlier in your life. And it's that wanting to return to discover, again, that feeling that you had.

Sister Maxine  
For Maria, who wonders how to do a retreat, how to make this possible what to look for, there are many different kinds of retreats that she might want to take a look at. Directed retreats, which are seven days, or usually seven- or eight-day retreats that you have a spiritual director that you may meet with once a day or every other day. There are individual retreats, community retreats.

Sister Julie  
When I first started, it was more of a community retreat that I had experienced. And that was mostly through school where like, our whole confirmation class, for example, goes on retreat for a weekend. And so you can have that where there's a common experience, and you're meant to be interacting and praying with one another. But as I grow older, in my old age, Sister, I love the silent, quiet individual retreats where I really can be alone. And that that's another way to do a retreat is in total silence. Other than perhaps saying, "Pass the salt"--even then though, some retreats, you can't even say that. So other kinds might be like a thematic kind of retreat--some people will go on retreats that are around the theme of knitting, for example, or maybe it's wilderness kind of retreat where you have an outer theme. But the goal, again, is to use that pathway, whether it's knitting, or music, or writing as a way to tap into your spirit and to be present to God.

Sister Maxine  
And there's a lot of those different kinds of retreats. The Racine Dominicans that we talked with a while back talked about basket weaving as a kind of retreat, which I thought was very interesting.

Sister Julie  
The one I want to try--I mean, I don't think it exists. But the Jesuits I'd gone to school with, they talked about, you know, if you're really faithful to prayer and faithful to being on retreat, that basically you could open up a phonebook and have that be the source of your retreat. So I'm looking for the phone book retreat. I think that would be fascinating.

Sister Maxine  
Another place besides the phone book, although you might find them in the phone book, Cenacle retreat centers.

Sister Julie  
Mm hmm. Another place to check in would simply be your parish, or diocese, or if you have religious nearby--sisters or brothers--that you might want to contact them because chances are they are in the know, because part of our life as religious is to have regular annual retreats. So they would be in the know about retreats in your area. Now, it's interesting in the chat room, a lot of folks have had different ideas about why they take retreats or why they don't. And one of the common themes that I'm picking up is about retreats being expensive. And sometimes it's not a matter of choosing to go or not to go, but just not being able to afford it or to afford the time. So that's definitely a piece to consider because it involves overnight accommodations, and that sort of thing. I do know here in Chicago, there's a group called Catholics on Call. And I know they offer, for example, free retreats for young people who are discerning their life's calling. And so you can sometimes find places like that or other retreat centers that will offer one or two free retreats--usually shorter retreats for people who can't afford it financially or afford the time.

Sister Maxine  
Somebody had mentioned here in the chat room going to the busy person's retreat. There are so many different varieties. There are ones that are shorter in time, recognizing that some folks might only have a weekend, and there are also online retreats. Now, I know that they exist I have just never experienced one. I don't know if you have, Sister Julie.

Sister Julie  
I've never done one myself because I check my email, and I start surfing, and so an online retreat does not work for me because I think so much of our life and our ministry is online. But I know actually our IHM sisters have a discernment retreat online. But there are also other places and we'll have to come up maybe with a little bit of a list. I think that'd be a good thing to post in the forum at a nun's life.org/forum. Maybe we can get a topic started there. And we can add in our thoughts and other people can, because that's a great idea.

Sister Maxine  
Lisa mentions that, as well, we could create a directory of retreat and spirituality centers on the forum.

Sister Julie  
Maybe even spiritual directors. I know, some spiritual directors are starting to use Skype, and other ways of having audio and visual to relate to people. So those would be really good resources for people who either don't have the time, the finances, or even the accessibility. Now I want to point out Joyce Elaine made a great comment. And she said that she's trying to go on retreat more often just in her daily life by taking an afternoon off and going to the beach. And I think that is a great idea.

Sister Maxine  
Along that same line of sort of a do-it-yourself retreat.

Sister Julie  
Oh, I like that!

Sister Maxine  
Kate, who is a librarian, says "This book is wildly popular at the library--can't keep it on the shelf."

Sister Julie  
Oh, that sounds like because of the phrase "spiritual exercises," it sounds like it might be based on the Jesuits' Ignatian spirituality. There is a form of retreat. It's a form of the spiritual exercises, which is usually a 30-day retreat with the Jesuits, called the 19th Annotation. It's a retreat based on the spiritual exercises. But instead of it being done in a solid, consecutive 30 days, it's done over the course of sometimes like a year, or a year and a half, so that you gradually go through it. And that's really helpful for people who just can't take a month off from their lives. And that was a lot of us.

Sister Maxine  
Yes. Understandable.

Sister Julie  
Yeah.

Sister Maxine  
Lisa mentions that she used to go into New York City for a Saturday or even just a Friday evening, and pick a church where something was going on. The church would be safe and available into the late hours.

Sister Julie  
That's a great idea.

Sister Maxine  
Now what have your retreat experiences been like?

Sister Julie  
I've done several different kinds. The most meaningful ones to me: one was a seven-day retreat. And it was it was one of the first times I'd sort of been led through a retreat that was based on Ignatian spirituality, with the movements of consolation and desolation, and it was powerful. I remember my spiritual director gave me this one passage from Scripture, and I spent the whole week with it. It was just, I mean, a few verses. It was incredible. It rocked my world. That was a great one. I've done a silent retreat at a cloistered monastery, the abbey of the Genesee, which is an offshoot of Thomas Merton's Gethsemani Abbey, and that one was great. It was total silence. I got up at 2:30 in the morning to pray the hours with the monks. I loved it. Remember, it was only eight days, so. And then another one was in the Rockies. I went to a Jesuit retreat center, right in the foothills of the Rockies. And so my spiritual director was really in tune with my need to be part of wilderness. And so I mixed scripture with hiking, with learning about the land and the animals in the area, with my personal prayer with silence. And that was a fantastic retreat. And by fantastic, I don't mean it was like all rainbows and puppies. I mean, it was some hard stuff. I mean, you get into--you know, when you face yourself, when you stand with God, and you lay your life out. You know, it's not all pretty, Sister.

Sister Maxine  
It's true. Lisa said, you know, stepping outside of one's comfort zone to experience prayer and God anew, you know, that's sort of what you're describing.

Sister Julie  
Yeah.

Sister Maxine  
It can be difficult.

Sister Julie  
But what have your experiences been like with retreat?

Sister Maxine  
One of the most profound experiences I had, it was nearly a silent retreat in that I just really tried to not be around a lot of people, and just really have some quiet time. And I called it my Great Black Swamp retreat. And what I would do is visit parcels of the Great Black Swamp in the Ottawa National Wildlife Preserve, which is at the southern edge of Lake Erie in Ohio. There are parcels of it--3000 acres here, a few hundred acres here and there. And I would just go and visit the different places in the Great Black Swamp and just look at it and be with it and think about how that all evolved, and the role of God and that and the role of myself in this creation. And for me, it was very, very profound.

Sister Julie  
So what was it, the affinity with the swamp? I initially--pardon me, but I initially I'm thinking like monsters and mosquitoes and stuff like that.

Sister Maxine  
Oh, there were mosquitoes. Very large ones. I think for me, it's just some of the rich imagery that the swamp gives me. The whole birth, death and rebirth; degeneration, regeneration--sort of like the whole of life happens there with all sorts of wildlife, birds and frogs and eagles and all sorts of things.

Sister Julie  
That is so cool. You know, we've mentioned before in other podcasts and on our website, that God always speaks our language. God knows us intimately. And so we'll pick the language that we're most familiar with--it's not going to be some foreign tongue. But it's going to be something that we know and that we love and that's dear to us. For me, you know, the foothills of the mountains, for you a swamp. That we find those images to be the nouns and the verbs of our language.

Sister Maxine  
There are titles here in the chat room that I think would make a great movie: Swamp Nun.

Sister Julie  
That's awesome!

Sister Maxine  
I would watch that movie.

Sister Julie  
"2:30 in the morning, Sister Maxine enters the swamp for prayer." I think that could be awesome. Totally.

Sister Maxine  
Great idea. Oh, here, the chat room, Lisa, again, comments that retreats--especially 30-day retreats--are exceptional graces, but they're not all solitude and rest, they are a lot of interior work. And it can get quite messy before it gets all wrapped up. And I think that's so true. Because with retreats, as with any times we take for contemplation in our life, it takes time to peel back the layers of defenses that we just normally have in our everyday life, that hold us together in the midst of busy schedules and multiple demands on us. And it takes a while to peel all that back. And to be at peace with who we are and what we find there.

Sister Julie  
That is a great thing to remember. You know, we talked at the very beginning about a retreat being a time to get away from it all, to kind of put the ordinary life aside for a moment and enter into this different space. But the truth of a retreat is certainly that, and you become refreshed, you become renewed, not by taking it easy, and having your margarita and kicking up your heels, although sometimes that's a necessary thing. But by being in a space to free yourself, to be able to take inventory of where you're at, to attend to some of the deeper things of the heart.

Sister Maxine  
So Maria, we hope that helps. As you're thinking about your retreat possibilities, we encourage you to follow up on that--whether you can take a retreat of an afternoon or a day or two days or a week--to pursue that and explore that. We really encourage you to do that.

Sister Julie  
Now very close to this topic of all things spiritual is one of my favorite topics: detachment. And I'm not talking about the handy dandy little Velcro that you got the other day Sister.

Sister Maxine  
I do like those.

Sister Julie  
I know. And some of those are so strong, it's really hard to detach.

Sister Maxine  
I could barely get you off the wall.

Sister Julie  
I know, it's like [makes sound].

Sister Maxine  
But detachment is a topic that I love as well, because there's just so many ways of looking at that.

Sister Julie  
Yeah. So the whole topic of detachment was raised by one of our friends, Regina from the chat room, so she called it in to Sister Mary at anunslife.org/contact. And so let's hear what Regina has to say.

Regina  
Hi, sisters. This is Regina from New Jersey. And my question for Ask Sister is, could you share a little about detachment from material things? Because when I think about the possibility of religious life, one of the things that scares me the most, besides maybe having to get up really early in the morning, is giving up my things, especially my gadgets. The thought of not having my iPod, for example, makes my palms kind of sweaty. I'd love to hear your experiences with such things. Thanks so much and namaste.

Sister Julie  
Yeah, giving up my gadgets kind of makes my palms sweaty too, sister.

Sister Maxine  
It would. And the thought of getting up in the middle of the night or getting up in the early, early morning all the time. Although, I mean, I think we tend to do that, but not all nuns do that.

Sister Julie  
No, that's not that's not a typical nun feature. While it might be typical, but--

Sister Maxine  
Yeah, that's one that sort of depends on your ministry. You know, one of our friends who's a Sister works as director at a girl's dormitory. And she's routinely up until two and three in the morning.

Sister Julie  
I think, yeah, that's a ministry thing. I don't do that. If I'm up at 2:30 in the morning, it's usually a clap of thunder or something like that. That's about it.

Sister Maxine  
So now detachment in general. You know, when I think of the spirit of detachment, I think of not being hooked by the things that might distract me from God being the center of my life. And it's not just material things that I consider. It might be ideas, it might be opinions or attitudes or beliefs I have that do that.

Sister Julie  
You know, a lot of times when we first think of detachment, it kind of can smack of negativity of becoming less of ourselves or getting, getting rid of something we really like, or something like that. It might mean that, but there's that broader sense of what you were talking about--you know, detachment being actually a very healthy thing, something that frees us.

Sister Maxine  
That frees us and does not oppress us. It's also important to say detachment, as we would understand it in this sense, also does not mean apathy--that we just let it go, or we think we need to be super ascetical. And so we just give it up, even though we don't want to.

Sister Julie  
Right, there's not much valor in that, I have to say. I mean, it's, it's a great thing to be able to do but true detachment, you know, in the sense that the saints, and the mystics speak of detachment, has to do with freeing ourselves so that we can unhook from the things that pull us away from God, and latch on, as it were, to God alone.

Sister Maxine  
It's interesting the phrase "unhook," because when we think of the things that may keep us bound, things like our fears, things like old baggage that we carry, maybe from past relationships, or past situations, things that shape the patterns of responses we have.

Sister Julie  
Yeah, yeah. And so much of that is unconscious, but part of the process of detachment, I think, is making them conscious, bringing them to light, not attacking them, or trying to banish them by force, but just taking a good look at them. And recognizing, "Yeah, this is part of my life," and to take new steps. So I guess it's talking about the spirit of detachment in general, because there is the point about, you know, what Regina was mentioning about the very specific things like detachment from material possessions. And some of that I think is built on how we first understand what detachment actually means. So, you know, in this general idea of what detachment is, it really has to do with kind of your whole attitude towards life, towards things, and not just this or that thing.

Sister Maxine  
And it's something that we can develop gradually over time. Because I think it's a very tough thing to do personally.

Sister Julie  
Yes, yeah.

Sister Maxine  
To detach, even though I know that it will free me, it may be very difficult for me to detach from a fear I have that if I have less then I'm going to be uncomfortable somehow.

Sister Julie  
Yeah. Well, and you know, I hate to say this, to you and to myself, is that ultimately, there's that bit of trust that has to deal with when I start getting nervous--because I do go there--about giving things up, whether it's a gadget, or an attitude, a lot of times it's because I don't fully trust God. I don't think that God can really handle it and really take care of this as well as I think I could do it.

Sister Maxine  
You could say, "Wouldn't God want me to have this, if this would make me happy?"

Sister Julie  
I know! I would think so. I think that's great argument right there. But I think faith and trust and love of God really calls us out of ourselves. Sometimes it's clear, and we know what those things are, and we can willingly embrace them. And other times, I think that we really have to go to that place of trust. And that means not knowing what's ahead of us after the next five feet, you know?

So to be willing to enter into that place of trust, be willing to let go of what is not life-giving to us, and to be willing to hang on to what is life giving. I think it's I think it's a little bit of both.

Yeah. So that's a little bit about the spirit of detachment. And I think another aspect of that, that I've come to appreciate more about detachment, is being detached from thinking that it's just something that I want or need, and beginning to foster a broader sense of what is good for all of us, for the common good. And that's something that has really come home to me, being a religious sister--is putting the common good first and trusting that by serving the common good, by being attached to the common good and detached from the mes and the mys, that I'll still be taken care of in that common good.

Sister Maxine  
That's a great point--that we can find our safety in the common good. We can find our joy in the common good. We can find ourselves, so to say, in that common good.

Sister Julie  
Now Regina also mentioned religious life. So within religious life, we can look at detachment from a little bit of a different lens--very, very similar to what we've been talking about. But just to shift, a little bit, that lens. And one of the things that the spirit of detachment comes out of is how we understand the vow of poverty. And in the vow of poverty, not necessarily as having little or not having a lot, but more of the spirit of living simply, which of course has implications for possessions.

Sister Maxine  
That's true. We should also say early on that different religious communities look at the vow of poverty and simplicity somewhat differently.

Sister Julie  
Yeah. And so, you know, the same is true for your comment about when a family gives you something. It's what you do with those--is that something that is going to distract you from God? Or is it something that's going to draw you closer? I know that can sound very simplistic to ask it that way. But if you are faithful to that, and do a little discernment with it, a lot of times you can see what is really helpful. For one person, you know, having a gift from their family for let's say, a trip or something, or tickets to see something they could have never afforded, might be a really good way for them to celebrate something or to experience something they might not have had the chance to. For another person, it might detract from their either their ministry or from their community life. So you can't really judge it by the thing itself, but how it fits into your life and the commitments you've made.

Sister Maxine  
Marta in the chat room makes a great point. She said, in response to somebody who's wondering if it's really necessary to give up everything, she said, "It's whether your own  your stuff, or your stuff owns you. For example, for someone who's very good at photography, to give up your photo equipment, might mean turning your back on one of your God-given gifts." I think that is really very significant: that these things are not ends in themselves. But they are our means to producing something that may create beauty in the world, that may bring joy to other people, that may bring joy to ourselves in an expression of our gifts.

Sister Julie  
Sister, I want to talk a little bit more about that because we are surrounded by gadgets. So when we come back from our break, we're going to talk a little bit more specifically about these gadgets and maybe do a little evaluation of our own. Given that we are surrounded by gadgets.

Sister Maxine  
For those who just joined us, you are listening to Ask Sister, a program of A Nun's Life Ministry. We are here to talk about your questions about Catholic sisters and nuns, community, faith, prayer, ministry, and lots of other topics.

Sister Julie  
We'll be right back.

This is Sister Julie with Sister Maxine of A Nun's Life Ministry. You're listening to A Nun's Life Ministry's broadcast of Ask Sister.

Sister Maxine  
We're talking about detachment, in the spiritual sense as well as in the material sense. And as we do, we've got lots of--

Sister Julie  
Look at this! We've got flashing things, we've got gadgets, we got more gadgets than I think we even know what to do with.

Sister Maxine  
And yet, these things are all necessary for us to engage in our ministry. And that is part of, in some senses, the simplicity of life: we have what we need for our ministry. We don't have much more than that. But it is what we need, and by looking at what we have and what we need, and focusing on that instead of maybe necessarily what we always want--that's not a bad thing.

Sister Julie  
Yeah, yeah.

Sister Maxine  
But it does help me stay focused.

Sister Julie  
Yeah. You know, I just thinking as you were saying that, that one of the other pieces of detachment and having just what we need is also being good stewards of what we have, that the things that that are life-giving to us, the things that do help us in our ministry, that draw us closer to God, are things we should take care of, you know, that that we are to be good stewards of what we have. There's a great line, I think it's from Sarah McLaughlin--or no, it's Sheryl Crow. It's not wanting what we don't have, but it's wanting what we do have and being able to own it and to love it. And so it's not so much that we be indifferent to it, but it's being passionate about what we have, but why we have it: for the purpose, for the mission.

Sister Maxine  
Marsha has an interesting turn on this. She said, "I think it's a good thing to cultivate an understanding, or at least to attempt to, that what I have doesn't belong to me, it belongs to God. And if I have something I don't really need, and someone else does need it, it's all ready theirs. Not to give it is to withhold it from its rightful owner." Wow, interesting perspective.

Sister Julie  
Yeah, that that reminds me in our congregation, and I'm sure this is true of other congregations. When I first got one of our prayer books, of course, it wasn't a new one, it was one that came from another sister. But when you open up the cover of it, in the front page, up in the corner, it says, "For the use of," and then there would be a sister's name--usually written in pencil, I'd like to add. So you know, how you write in your name, like this book belongs to so and so. In our congregation, all of the books, not just the prayer books, it said, "For the use of," and then in pencil, it would be "Sister," and you could see erased out another sister's name, written, erased out another sister's. And that, for me, it was such a bold image of what it means that this is not mine. It's just simply for my use at this time.

Sister Maxine  
That's a wonderful example of how a tradition, a religious tradition, plays out in a congregation. A very simple example. But very powerful.

Sister Julie  
Regina here in the chat room she says, "I think that I would want a community that appreciated my talents, and what makes me tick. And would encouraged me to keep singing, keep listening to music, keep taking pictures, etc. So that they would let me have access to the tools for such things. Otherwise, it wouldn't be the right community for me.

Sister Maxine  
That points to the notion that our gifts are not for us alone, that we receive gifts for the good of the community, as well as for ourselves. And it is one of the joys of community to have this diversity of gifts that come together, and to celebrate that diversity of gifts.

Sister Julie  
Yeah, very much so. And I think it's sometimes it's difficult. And this is where discernment comes into play. And this is where going on retreat actually comes into play as well. Sometimes it's difficult to know, what are the things that that we love that we can still let go of? And what are the things that we love that we're called to hold on to? You know, so deciding what is an attachment, what needs to be detached, is really important. When I first entered the community, here's one example. I guess I had a notion of religious life that I would somehow be cut off from the world. And that's very pre-Vatican II, but it lingered. I mean, it's a powerful image. It's simply not the case. I mean, some cloistered communities--there's definitely, there's definitely a cloister, shall we say, but for the most part, even in cloistered communities, there's a connection. But anyway, so I went into religious life thinking that, while I'd still know my family and friends, that I would simply be in a community of sisters, I never thought that I would be friends with them. I thought they would just be nuns, sisters. And that was something I had to be willing to let go of--that I would be developing new friendships--because I just didn't know at the time. And it's funny because I let that go. And yet it came back to me. You know, it came back to me because I realized that that my sisters were becoming my friends, that I was developing relationships and forms of intimacy that I never really experienced before. And so that's an example I think of sometimes where we let things go that mean a lot to us, for example, me having friends. And we let that go. And I think there's a grace in that. And yet, I think God returns it to us, when it's one of those things that is good for us.

Sister Maxine  
I agree with that completely. You know, I'm just sitting here thinking about when I was considering joining religious life. I had a house, I had all the furniture that I wanted, I had everything the way I liked it. And one of my concerns and what I had to detach from was the worry that after acquiring all this stuff, and making it just the way I want it so that I would be perfectly comfortable, that somehow I would be less than comfortable as a sister. And what I had to detach from was the worry that I knew best for myself, ahead of time, what would make me happy? Because what I found is that even as I went through the process of selling the house and settling issues with the furniture and the car, I mean all sorts of things, that the very thing I feared was the thing that freed me most. And I realized that of course, this group of women, this congregation that I was joining, had no intention of making any of its members suffer needlessly, experience discomfort needlessly. And it was a great joy to grow into that realization: that I could let go of things like that and just be perfectly fine. In fact, happier than I had been before.

Sister Julie  
Wow.

Sister Maxine  
And that's an example of God bringing it back to me.

Sister Julie  
Yeah, and when it comes back, I think it comes back renewed or purified. And by purified, I mean, coming to its purest, most crystal clear, beautiful essence. And it might not have been something we could have really appreciated prior to that. That's all just to say, I think that that when we are kind of trying to balance those things, and knowing what to let go of, if we let go of something that really is good for us, or is a gift that we're going to need in the future, God finds a way of bringing that back to us.

Sister Maxine  
It may not be in the same shape.

Sister Julie  
It may not be, Sister.

Sister Maxine  
Marcia has a question along the lines of the possession thing. Do you have to get rid of your house/ stuff before being accepted into the order or upon final vows? Do you get to wait some time before, so to say, cutting to the chase?" That's a good question. And that was a question certainly I had before going in. Being accepted into the order--no, you can be accepted into an order like in the initial stages as a candidate. But as you move closer and closer and you become a novice, and you are then technically part of the congregation, it is a good thing to have most of the big things in your life settled at that point. Or at least have a plan, because by the time you reach the novitiate, you have a pretty good sense of you're going to be there. You do have the option to have someone administer the property for you, if you have a house--administer your stocks, administer anything--you do have that option. Even after you become professed, to some extent, you have that. So it's not like you become a novice, and you've already sold your house and your car, and all of a sudden, it just doesn't work out and there you are. Nobody wants that to happen.

Sister Julie  
No. And it's good that the process of learning about religious life and becoming part of a community gives you the time to make some of those decisions and to see how you really feel about them. Sabrina in the chat room mentioned that she would have the hardest time letting go of her kitty. And I was blessed to not have any animals going into religious life, because I think I would have had that that problem as well. But it just so happens that a little kitty came into our life well after being in formation and being professed, and animals are definitely a challenge. And most communities, especially during formation, don't allow you to bring animals. That's one of those attachments, it's a good attachment in the sense that it's great that you have these little furry creatures in your life and that you love them. But for purposes of formation, which is can be up to seven years, you need the time to at least let go of personally caring for that animal for a time so that you can grow in the life of the community--and being in community, you know, means that that that you might be called out for a ministry here, you might be called to serve over here, you might be needed for a 30-day retreat. You have to be free to be able to do those, and having to care for a little creature every single day doesn't allow you to be free to do those different things. So that's an example of a detachment that can be really hard and heartbreaking. But one that is for another good and caring and making sure that little kitty gets a good home, is with your mom, is with your sister, is wherever--is the best thing that you can do for that time. And as I said, you never know how these things come back to you though.

Sister Maxine  
An interesting observation from Kristen here who said a friend of hers engaged in a quote "right of total renunciation" the night before her perpetual profession, her final vows. And not all congregations do that. We do not do a rite of total renunciation. However, there's just no question and no doubt in your mind when you take those final vows that your life has changed radically, and that you are now part of a community and that you can't even use the criteria from your life before then. You can't say to yourself, "When I look at a situation, I'm going to choose X, Y, and Z, because in the past I would have done this." Those criteria are gone. And so it's for us it's not a total renunciation even of things. But it is a total recognition that your life has changed dramatically and I imagine when people, when they take marriage vows, there's just no question their life is going to change in dramatic and unpredictable ways.

Sister Julie  
When you have a baby. You know. I think that's so key and I'm still thinking about Regina's question about gadgets and the things that we choose to give up. That's part of formation and discernment: you're not just learning the rules and regulations of what to do, what to not do. That's a very small piece of it. But you're slowly taking on, as the Bible would say, the mind of Christ. And I mean, we're always doing that as Christians, but you're taking on the mindset and truly imbibing the spirit of that congregation, such that you are a different person, more than ever yourself. But you see things very, very differently. And so it's like comparing apples and oranges. I always use the image of it changes your DNA. By the time I got to my vows, I felt I was already encoded with IHM DNA, because I just approached the world in a very different, new way that was very me, but it was just different. And that's a blessing.

Sister Maxine  
It's a whole change of context.

Sister Julie  
It is. It is.

Sister Maxine  
Polly here in the chat room has a practical question and says, "What happens when a sister needs personal care things or clothing?" So she's looking for a little clarification on the money thing. In our congregation, and I think many congregations operate this way, all the money that we make--which, you know, I wouldn't hold my breath on that, frankly--but anybody who makes money is putting it into the big pot, and all the sisters who are out there on mission, whatever money we all make, we put it into the big IHM pot of money. And then from that we are able to get the things that we need--food, clothes, just the basics that we need for living. And it's that notion of community: if you need a little bit more then you get it; if you need a little bit less, then you're able and willing and happy to do that, too.

Sister Julie  
Yeah. And in a very real way, the clothes we're wearing, the computers that we use for our ministry, the car that we drive, we technically do not own these things. It technically belongs to the congregation as a whole. And so, you know, one of our sisters could, if she needed one thing more than another, then that would be hers. There was a time when someone donated a minivan to the congregation. And it just so happened that my little nunmobile broke down at that time. And so I got the minivan, which was like just luxurious to me. I love carting things around, and I had a small living space at the time. So I kind of used the back is like an extra bedroom. I mean, no one slept there. But I remember it was with the understanding that that it would be for my use, unless the time came where another sister needed it more than I did. And I have to say, oh, I loved the minivan. And in my previous life, I might have been like, "Yeah, forget that. It's mine, baby." But I didn't think twice about it. Like, "Of course." And I could just imagine one of my nuns who's an artist needing it to carry her canvases. I could imagine one of my nuns who does social justice work using it to bring kids to daycare. Of course that's what I wanted.

Sister Maxine  
It doesn't mean that you weren't sad about letting the minivan go.

Sister Julie  
I think you were sadder than I was, Sister!

Sister Maxine  
I did like the minivan--it was so helpful! But you know, there's a recognition that you loved it when it was there. And now it's serving a purpose. And you're happy about that, too.

Sister Julie  
I mean, the more I think about this in my life, I've worked hard for what I what I've received, whether it was my education, or the things that I have, and I never thought I could be in a place where I'd be okay not having anything, but I gotta say, it's the most incredible experience. I love it. I love that I have what I need. I love that this is part of our common good. I love that it challenges the heck out of me. It's really hard. I mean, you just don't wake up, be like, "Okay, sure, here's my shirt." Sometimes it's really, really tough. But I love that. I love that this is the life that calls me into that over and over again.

Sister Maxine  
In the sense of counterculturalness that can't be understated, the whole fact of taking the money that you make and putting it into the big pot. My friends, when I was telling them about joining religious life, they were first concerned about the celibacy, thinking, "Oh my gosh, are you sure?" And then when I told them about the money thing, they were like, "Oh my gosh, I could never do that." The celibacy thing then started looking better.

Sister Julie  
When solvency looks good...

Sister Maxine  
And yet at the same time it is--I've experienced that way too--it is very freeing. It lets me in some ways, through the gift of the community as a whole, supporting one another, encouraging one another, believing that together, we can help bring about a better world when we're together, working for the same thing, supporting one another. It would be, I think, much tougher, doing it alone.

Sister Julie  
It's interesting. There's also a sense of security that comes with community life. The thing that came to my mind is one of our little stories in our congregation, from the early days of our congregation, when we had nothing. And the story goes, one sister had a fork, one sister a plate, one sister a spoon. That kind of summarize that sense of-- you know, it's not security in the sense that we've got our stocks and bonds all set up, and we have no cares in the world, but it's the security of being in it together.

Sister Maxine  
Not being alone in it.

Sister Julie  
Yeah.

Sister Maxine  
And no matter what happens, that that bond of community is there so that we can weather the rough economic times. And we are in that boat, like many people right now in this economy, and it's sticking together for us as a community. It's like a family would stick together.

Sister Julie  
Wow, lots to think about on that topic of detachment, Regina, and we so appreciate the question, and the questions that are raised within ourselves and within the chat room. And it's definitely something to keep munching on.

Sister Maxine  
Sister, you ready for another question?

Sister Julie  
I am.

Sister Maxine  
Before we move on, can we just quickly mention we aren't able to get to all of the questions that are coming up in the chat room. But we would love it if you can take the rest of those questions--there's questions about an inheritance, there's questions about a lot of other things there. If you could take those to the forum, and then Sister Julie and I will head on over there at some point relatively soon, and see if we can take the rest of them there.

Sister Julie  
Mm hmm. So what do you have for us now, Sister.

Sister Maxine  
We have the writer who has contacted us. Now we've had a couple writers be in touch with us. And so we love it. And here's what she's got. Her name is Sylvia. And she's creating a character called Haley who is a nun. And this Haley character grew up in a tough neighborhood; for a while, she hung out with street thugs and local bikers.

Sister Julie  
Ooh, that sounds like your history, Sister. Is this like "Sister Maxine: The Untold Story?"

Sister Maxine  
Yeah, we have a lot of street thugs and local bikers on the farms in Iowa.

Sister Julie  
Did you say slugs?

Sister Maxine  
So anyway, the character Haley, then she increasingly finds herself attracted to a small convent of nuns who are living near a church and according to our writer, Haley is now somewhere in the process of joining the nuns. So our author has a few specific questions about prayer and vespers and calling people sister and habits. And overall, she wonders about the factors to consider so as to depict Haley as authentically as possible.

Sister Julie  
And again, I think that is awesome. I guess my first thing would be kudos to you, Sylvia, for wanting that. A lot of people take all kinds of liberties with the image of Catholic sisters and nuns and I am grateful that you are choosing the path of creating a fictional character, but keeping her authentic to what it means to be a sister a nun.

Sister Maxine  
Answering questions about Haley is sort of difficult, because there are many different ways to authentically live religious life. So I think if we can look for answers in some of the context of what we know about Haley, what Sylvia has already told us, and equally as important, what we still need to learn about Haley,

Sister Julie  
I think that's good. So maybe just listen in and maybe you can help us along as we talk through some of the things that we do know about this character, Haley. And feel free to add your two cents, because I have a suspicion that the author Sylvia will be listening in. So anything you can say, I'm sure she would appreciate, as Haley comes to life.

Sister Maxine  
Some of the things that we already know about Haley--we'll touch on some of those. She's already in the early stages of discernment, either a candidate or a novice, and so this means that she has been formally exploring God's calling her life. And she has done that within the context of this particular congregation that she's in. Now, since she's already been there living with the nuns, she and the nuns are also very familiar with each other. So this is going to be a discernment that has, in many ways, already happened because they know each other really well.

Sister Julie  
Right. And so they would already know that she's come from a difficult situation. They all know that the context they live in--I think you had mentioned bikers around, street thugs, so they know it's a tough kind of place to live.

Sister Maxine  
And in that situation, a sister who had that little bit of worldly knowledge, that would be considered a definite benefit. Chances are, there would be very few people in that convent in that neighborhood who would be scandalized if Haley had a tattoo. I would guess that she would, in fact.

Sister Julie  
She sounds like a tattoo-having kind of person.

Sister Maxine  
Yep. Probably nobody would be shocked if she drank a beer or two on occasion, and maybe even let a curse word slip once in a while.

Sister Julie  
Sister!

Sister Maxine  
I'm just saying. Haley is not going to change into something, or someone, holier than thou or different from what she was. She's going to become more of who she is. She is in this neighborhood. And she's chosen to stay in this neighborhood with these nuns. So there's got to be somebody in there who is deeply, deeply caring about where she is, deeply caring about people who are in trouble, and willing to stick it out with them.

Sister Julie  
Yeah. And I'm liking this community. I mean, we don't know much about them. Some folks in the in the chat room were asking, "Do we know anything about the congregation?" But I have to say, just based on the fact that they are taking Haley into their lives, that means that they're the kind of group who's not easily scandalized by things, that can see through some of the tough exteriors, can see through some of the hardness and the harshness of life, and be able to appreciate the beauty within that. And that says a lot to me. A community like that, to me, whether I was interested in joining a habited community, unhabited community, one that does social justice or teaches are is contemplative, I would put all of that aside for a community like this, that  could see that kind of beauty and be okay with stuff like that.

Sister Maxine  
And it doesn't mean that everybody in the convent would necessarily be really fond of that. They might think she's a little risqué.

Sister Julie  
Yeah.

Sister Maxine  
So for some, she might not seem risqué at all.

Sister Julie  
Well, and I would think Sylvia would want to have that in her tale, to be able to have a little that dynamic tension of someone who doesn't quite get it, or maybe someone who does get it and just offers a different perspective that others don't agree on. I mean, that's cool, too.

Sister Maxine  
I just don't want to lose this rolling through the chat room real quick: Lisa said, one of her favorite nun characters is Sister Pete, one of the chaplains on the former HBO show Oz. I've never seen that.

Sister Julie  
I don't think I have either.

Sister Maxine  
So that might be somebody that Haley could draw a little bit upon.

Sister Julie  
Yeah, I think so too. So, I mean, that kind of at least gives us a little bit of feel of where she's coming from. If they're in an inner-city type situation--I mean, they could be a cloistered community. That's very possible. There are monasteries that are right in the heart of downtown areas or the inner city. It's also very likely, though, that it would be more of like an active religious community, one that is involved in different ministries, maybe social work, maybe counseling, maybe working at the local prison, to be involved with a community at that level.

Sister Maxine  
That would definitely be an apostolic model of religious community, a contemplative religious community, she wouldn't have that much opportunity, Haley would really probably be more cloistered, and so wouldn't have that opportunity to go out and engage people.

Sister Julie  
Right. And from what we know of Haley, it sounds like probably cloistered wouldn't fit her.

Sister Maxine  
Right, even though we wouldn't want to infer that Haley--after growing up with the gangs and stuff--that she was there seeking safety and shelter from them. It sounds like what we know of Haley--because, of course, she wouldn't get accepted into a religious congregation simply because of that. They may continue to do that if she were in some kind of physical danger. But she would be there because she has discerned that this life is for her and the congregation has discerned that with her.

Sister Julie  
Yeah, yeah. But Sylvia, the writer, hasn't made that clear. So, Sylvia, that might be something to look at: to see what the major strand of religious life is that Haley's attracted to. Because whether it's an apostolic religious community or a contemplative cloistered community, each one is kind of structured or built a little bit differently, has different characteristics. So that'd be an important thing, I think, to hack out pretty early on as you're crafting this character.

Sister Maxine  
And an example of that would be how that would affect their prayer life. Being an apostolic, when you're engaged in really active service in the world, you're not going to generally have that structure of prayer, you know, pray three times a day, pray five times a day at certain specific times. Prayer is still central to your life. There's no question about that. But again, it's that structure that would change because of the kind of congregation that you are.

Sister Julie  
I think another aspect--and this was a question, Sylvia, that you had had about some of the praying habits, so to speak, of Haley and the community that she's with. You had asked about whether or not they would be praying vespers and praying hourly. And as Maxine said, knowing kind of the difference between, is it a contemplative community cloistered, or is it more an active religious? I mean, you're going to need to know that before you can really answer that question.

Sister Maxine  
One of the other specific questions that Sylvia raised to us was, does she use a religious name? And then she also asked a question about habits. And all we could say is we would guess that Haley being a member of a religious congregation, and most religious congregations today, certainly apostolic ones, use baptismal names. I don't know if that's as true for contemplative. We are apostolic, and that's what we know best. And if she were in an apostolic congregation, she would definitely be more inclined to use the baptismal name. And that's one of the many changes that came about in religious life in the late 60s and early 70s.

Sister Julie  
She mean, she couldn't take Sister Mary Biker Chick?

Sister Maxine  
No, and not because Biker Chick is not a saint name or something.

Sister Julie  
It's not??

Sister Maxine  
No, no, the custom of the congregation, of course.

Sister Julie  
Yeah, that's true. Now: can she ride a motorcycle that has been donated to the community? And it might help us to really get a sense of what that means.

Sister Maxine  
I don't know if it's that motorcycle. But if that would be part of our ministry, we both know of sisters who ride motorcycles. And if that's part of what helps them for their ministry, a lower cost option, anything like that. Again, it would depend on a congregation's attitude towards that sort of thing--might even depend on if they're worried for the sister's safety. I don't know here in the expressways in Chicago--I don't think I would want Sister Julie riding a motorcycle down the Dan Ryan.

Sister Julie  
Oh, come on. I'd get a little sidecar and put sister Chloe the convent cat next to me. It'd be awesome.

Sister Maxine  
But anyway, just getting back to the issue.

Sister Julie  
It's hard to get back, Sister. I know.

Sister Maxine  
Getting back to the issue of names. That is a practice that has changed. They might call each other "Sister," you know, because we've got the religious versus baptismal name. And there's also the title of sister most congregations, apostolic congregations that are modern congregations, have certain customs around that. There may be times they call one another sister, you know, and maybe times that they don't. And it really depends. A couple of books that we would encourage you to read, Sylvia, that would be very informative on a number of these issues. One is The Transformation of American Catholic Sisters, by Lora Ann Quinones and Mary Daniel Turner, a superbly done book that looks at changes around the 1950s, 60s, and 70s. It was so pivotal to the way religious life is today.

Sister Julie  
Another thing that people might want to check out are some articles that were written by our own IHM Sister, Sandra Schneiders. And she wrote those in the National Catholic Reporter. So you can you can just put those two words in, Sandra Schneiders and National Catholic Reporter, on our website, we have links and you can also just put them in any search engine and come up with those. She does a great job at helping bridge that gap in our imagination of how we got from sisters with full habits and living the horarium to sisters with diverse dress and diverse ministries.

Sister Maxine  
So those are couple of good resources. We also have a question from Sylvia about the habit. And we've got quite a bit of information, Sylvia, on our website. If you go to the Ask Sister Episode 73, you'll hear some of that. We would say, just very quickly, the majority of sisters in the United States who are apostolic do not wear traditional habits. Some might wear a slightly modified habit, but many, many, many wear the simple clothing that's appropriate to their ministry.

Sister Julie  
And again, the customs are particular to each religious community. And each religious community defines those in their rule of life or their constitutions, which is a document about how we live our religious life. And those are documents that ultimately go through the Vatican, and are approved and come back to us and that our life is based on, so we do we do these things definitely in connection with the whole church.

Sister Maxine  
That might be another interesting thing. If you go to theological schools, like Catholic Theological Union in Chicago, they actually have copies of different congregations' constitutions, and you can see some of the things that guide religious life in a particular order. That would be very informative as well.

Sister Julie  
Yeah. So I think I don't think we mentioned this, but another good source, Sylvia, for more information about the habit is a book by Elizabeth Kuhns and it's simply called The Habit. Great book. I know you love it as well, Sister Maxine.

Sister Maxine  
It is one of my favorite because she actually looks at it in terms of somebody who's in the clothing field--from not just a fashion but a fabric point of view. It's a really interesting book.

Sister Julie  
Yeah, definitely.

Sister Maxine  
We look forward to hearing how Haley develops.

Sister Julie  
Absolutely. So blessings, Sylvia, on your writing. It is a great ministry and we look forward to hearing more.

Sister Maxine  
Now Sister, our broadcast time here is nearly up. So we want to say thanks to everyone who is listening here online at anunslife.org/live.

Sister Julie  
Ask Sister is broadcast live on Thursday evenings at 6 pm Central Time, at anunslife.org/live. Join us and lots of other folks for live chat during the broadcast. All other weekday evenings, join us for a live prayer broadcast at anunslife.org

Sister Maxine  
This program is made possible through the grace of God and through the support of corporate sponsors and you, our listeners. For information about sponsoring this program visit anunslife.org/sponsors. And to make a donation, click on the donate button at anunslife.org. We are grateful for your encouragement and support.

Sister Julie  
Ask Sister is a production of A Nun's Life Ministry, helping people discover and grow in their vocation by engaging questions about God, faith, and religious life.

Sister Maxine  
Visit us at anunslife.org. God bless.