IGF049 In Good Faith with Sister Patricia Flass, in service to rural communities around Selma, Alabama

Sister Maxine  
This is In Good Faith, a conversation about the experience of living faith in everyday life. I'm Sister Maxine, and my guest is Sister Patricia Floss. Sister Pat is a familiar face in small towns around Selma, Alabama, where she has lived and worked for over 20 years in some of the most impoverished areas of our nation. For many years, Sister Pat worked in Pine Apple, Alabama, where she directed an adult daycare program and a senior nutrition center and worked in a food pantry. She currently leads the new Rural Program, where she introduces other Catholic Sisters and associates to Selma-area residents and opportunities for service. Sister Pat is part of a long tradition of service in Alabama, by her congregation, the Sisters of St. Joseph of Rochester, New York, who have served in Alabama for over 80 years. Sister Pat joins me today from Selma to talk about her ministry, her perspectives on poverty, and her hope for the future. Welcome, Sister Pat, to In Good Faith.

Sister Pat  
Well, thank you very much for having me.

Sister Maxine  
You've lived and worked in the deep south in Alabama for nearly two decades. Before we talk about that, I'd like to ask you about the journey that brought you to Alabama, a journey that started in rural New York, which is quite a long ways from Selma and the surrounding areas. Tell me a little bit about your family life.

Sister Pat  
Well, I have two brothers, one older, one younger. And we were--I wouldn't say an extremely devout family. But we were very dedicated to the parish that we belong to. Both my mother and father served in many different capacities, and kind of gave us that example of sharing our talents with the parish in whatever way that we could.

Sister Maxine  
You grew up in a somewhat rural area.

Sister Pat  
Yes, it was. It was a farming community. There were a lot of farms right around where I lived. I didn't live on a farm. But there were farms across the street and right down the street and all around. I worked on some of these farms, especially in the summertime, partly for something to do but also to earn tuition to help pay for Catholic high school, education that I was receiving.

Sister Maxine  
When you were in high school, was it with the congregation you would eventually join, the Sisters of St. Joseph of Rochester?

Sister Pat  
Yes. Both elementary school and high school I had the sisters.

Sister Maxine  
Did the thought cross your mind that maybe one day, you would belong with them? Did you feel an attraction to them?

Sister Pat  
I did, I was attracted to the sisters. The eighth-grade teacher that I had actually came to Selma right after she left our eighth-grade graduation--came to Selma and started teaching down at St. Elizabeth School in Selma. And I kept in touch with her when I was in high school. And so I think the seed was planted right then that, somehow or other, at some point in my life, I was going to be in Selma, Alabama.

Sister Maxine  
What had your understanding up until that point, as you were growing up, and as you were in high school--what was your understanding or your encounter with poverty at that point?

Sister Pat  
She didn't really emphasize so much the poverty, although that was certainly part of the experience. But it was the discrimination and the segregation of the black people and the white people in the area that was really uppermost in her discussions, and in my mind, at that time. Because in New York, we really didn't have water fountains that said, you know, white or black, or bathrooms that said white or black. It was so foreign to think that in our country, people could be segregated from each other by the color of their skin. So that was something that was uppermost in my mind more than the poverty in the area, which I really wasn't aware of until I came here.

Sister Maxine  
When you were growing up in New York, did you encounter poverty among your classmates? What were some of your earliest understandings of what that might be?

Sister Pat  
In elementary school, I know that many of the students in my class were not well off. Some were. There were sons and daughters of lawyers or doctors, but many of them were poor. And we were aware of it. I don't think there was a distinction made. Sometimes we might have shared lunches with some of the students who didn't have as much to eat. There wasn't a lunch program back then. So you might have brought an extra sandwich or something like that for one of your classmates. But I don't remember, you know, distinguishing among our class of different children, rich or poor. It just never occurred to me at that time.

Sister Maxine  
Describe what your decision was like and what the process was for you going to Alabama. I understand some of your first ministries were in education in New York. How did you get from there, then, down to Alabama?

Sister Pat  
That's a good question. I had always wanted to come. As I mentioned before, my eighth-grade teacher came to Alabama, and talked about it, and I kept in touch with her. But it must have always been in the back of my mind to come. And at one point, I remember getting a call from the Superior General. And she asked me if I would like to go to Selma. And at that time, my mother was sick. She was dealing with cancer. And I said, "No, I don't think this is a good opportunity right now. But thank you very much." And a couple of years later, things were better in the family situation. And I got another phone call and said, "Would you like to go to Selma, Alabama?" And I said, "Yes, I would." So I left where I was teaching, and moved myself down here to Alabama.

Sister Maxine  
First of all, the weather alone must have been somewhat of a shock, from New York to such a warm area.

Sister Pat  
[laughter] Yes, that was, I guess you might say. The climate was certainly different. Another thing that was a surprise was the accent of the people. And even to this day, after 20 years, I have a hard time understanding some of the people when they speak--not just black people, but white people also. I don't understand very well. I have to ask them, "Please say that over again? Say it a little slower." Because they do have a different dialect. That's another thing that I noticed when I came here.

Sister Maxine  
So you went in 1998, to the town of Pine Apple, which I love the town name. And in your first ministry there, were a director of an adult daycare program. Can you describe some of the people who came to you for care and what the need there was?

Sister Pat  
There were usually 20, 25 people that came. They came daily. We had to pick them up on a bus, most of them. They were placed there, many of them by the state. They were supported by the state to some degree. The Edmundite Missions also contributed a large amount of money for their support. They were there because they were disabled in some way, elderly, they had no one at home during the day to take care of them. So they came there. The social services would put them there as a safe place for them to be. Many of them were extremely disabled. We had two people, two elderly people who had never learned how to talk. They could not speak. And they were a challenge, I must say. But we grew to love them very much. A few words, they might be able to say a few words. When we pray in the morning, we would go around the room and everybody would say a Bible verse. And this one gentleman always said, "Jesus wept." That was as much as he could say of the Bible: "Jesus wept." And every morning he would say that, and he would say it so sincerely that it was just beautiful. And it's always been in my mind since then.

Sister Maxine  
You also worked at a senior nutrition center. What was that experience like?

Sister Pat  
That was funded by the state. They would bring meals in, and we would serve the community. People would come in and get a meal. If they could pay for it, they would. The price when I first went there was 75 cents for dinner. I think right now it's $1.25 cents because of inflation. And it's still going. It does serve the community of Pine Apple. We used to take meals out. We had a van that we would deliver quite a few meals to people in the other areas where they couldn't come in. Now they don't deliver anymore, but people do come in and pick up a meal for others and take them out. So that is still going on, which is a blessing to the people in the Pine Apple area.

Sister Maxine  
Is there a high proportion of senior adults who are living in poverty? And are there other groups that are a high proportion of the people who are living in poverty?

Sister Pat  
Well, there are many seniors. Again, there are many single parents raising families, don't have much of an income at all. So those are two groups. Now the young single parents cannot come to the Nutrition Center, but they would come to the food pantry. And there were no restrictions there. They could come and get good nutritious food to take home to their families. The nutrition center was only for those who are 60 or older.

Sister Maxine  
I understand that there's also quite a number of children there in that area who still live in poverty.

Sister Pat  
Yes, there are. The housing is another very serious problem. The condition of the houses is very bad. They are very rundown. They're lacking in many of the things that we would call necessities, like running water, for instance, a good clean running water--they might have some source of water in their home. But many of them are really, well, substandard, I would say. In fact, if you saw pictures of them, you wouldn't believe that people were living in homes like that, in this day and age.

Sister Maxine  
The contrast of that area, which has a rich agricultural history, the contrast between that and the extreme poverty--how do those two things kind of go side by side?

Sister Pat  
Well, the history of the area, when you're looking at it, and I have become more aware of it in the past couple of years--it has been discussed in the US Congress. What happened was that many farms that were owned by black people, they lost them, because they did not know how to navigate the governmental regulations. And so many of them didn't pay taxes when they were supposed to. The plan was foreclose, and white people bought up the land. And so very few farms are owned now by blacks. So they work on the farms and agriculture, but they don't own the land. So most of the land in the area is owned by wealthy white people. They raise cattle, they raise cotton, they raise trees. Trees are a really big business here. Many of the fields have been turned into a farm of trees, and they grow the trees cut them down. There are many lumber companies that buy the lumber, make lumber for building, they make paper. That's a big industry in the area. So logging is one of the major industries, but again, the land is not owned by the blacks. It's owned by the rich white people and in some instances, foreign countries actually have bought up the land and are managing the tree farms.

Sister Maxine  
That would have an impact on why it would be hard in those rural areas to find a fresh food.

Sister Pat  
That's right, because the land is not used for food.

Sister Maxine  
We're going to pause for a brief break. This is In Good Faith, a program of A Nun's Life Ministry. We want to thank our sponsors and individual donors like you, whose support makes the In Good Faith program possible.

Welcome back, this is Sister Maxine and my guest, Sister Patricia Flass. We love to hear from our listeners and your input helps us create the podcasts you enjoy. Please take a couple of minutes after this podcast to fill out a short survey. Just click the link in the Episode Notes. We'd be very grateful. Sister Pat, you worked with adult daycare and senior nutrition at a food pantry as well. And then in 2016, you began working at Catholic Social Ministries in Selma. What kinds of things did you do there?

Sister Pat  
Well, I did mostly intake when people would come in. They would express what their need was, and they would ask for assistance. And I did the paperwork for them and set up an appointment with a social worker that we had. They would need either help paying their electric bill or their rent or their gas bill. Sometimes they needed help fixing up their homes, because they didn't have you know, the means of putting on a new roof or a new porch or better windows. Some people came in because they were homeless, and they were looking for a place to stay for the night or even help finding more permanent housing. So Catholic Social Ministries, run by the Edmundite Missions here in Selma, receives also some support from the Diocese of Mobile, tries to provide services of whatever kind people ask for. That's the goal: to do whatever they can to provide for these needs.

Sister Maxine  
You mentioned the Edmundite Missions. Can you say a little bit more about what they do in the areas in and around Selma?

Sister Pat  
One of the first things they did way, way back--they did start a hospital, which closed after integration when black people were finally admitted to the city hospital. When they close the hospital here in Selma, they started rural health clinics. So that's how the health clinic got to Pine Apple. There was one also in several other communities that surrounded Selma. So they brought the health care out to the people in the rural areas. The government now runs these clinics. They are federally funded health clinics.

Sister Maxine  
They work primarily in Selma these days?

Sister Pat  
The Edmundites work now primarily in Selma, and in one rural community, which is located in the next county over-a little town called Mosses, which I don't know how they got that name. But anyway, that's the name of the community. And they also have a food pantry, and some educational programs there, that they run--an after-school program, a summer school program. And the social ministry from Selma reaches out to people in that area, so that they can also have access to the same services that the Catholic Social Ministry provides in Selma.

Sister Maxine  
Do you have a sense of how many clients they would have in any given year?

Sister Pat  
Well, they do have a large number of clients. The Catholic Social Ministry, over a four-month period, served over 4000 people. Now that would include Selma and the area of Mosses. And they run a free clothing center--people can come in and get access to free clothes in both Mosses and in Selma. And they served over 2000 people during the same four-month period. In Selma, the Edmundite Missions, one of their main things is the Bosco Food Pantry, which was started many, many years ago--one of the first things that the Edmundites did when they came in, they recognized the need for good nutritious food. They started on a small scale, but now they serve over 1000 people a day in the Bosco Soup Kitchen, which is named after Saint John Bosco of course. And they serve lunch and dinner, two meals a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year. So there's a large number of people in Selma who can receive two meals a day--some are delivered to their homes if they're unable to come and some are served actually at the soup kitchen itself. The past couple of years they've tried to improve the nutritional benefits of the soup kitchen, so not as much fried food. So we have more vegetables. We have brown bread instead of white bread, which is much better for you. So they've tried to improve the health of the meals that are served.

Sister Maxine  
When you were at Catholic Social Ministries, working with the Edmundite missions, your connection with them goes beyond you individually. Your congregation has a long connection with them and with the Selma area.

Sister Pat  
Yes, that's correct. We have been here working alongside the Edmundite Missions since 1941, when the first sisters came down.

Sister Maxine  
And since then, I think over 100 of your sisters have been there?

Sister Pat  
Yes, over that 80 year span of time. Many, many sisters have served either as nurses at the hospital, teachers at the school or in social ministry areas that have developed over the years. Some did religious education for Catholic students, even after the school closed. They had religious education for the students here in Selma. There's one parish here in Selma, one Catholic parish. There were two, one was white one was black. And then after integration, the two merged together. So today we have a parish, which is probably about half and half. And it's the only true integrated parish in Selma. There is not a Protestant church that is integrated. There are many black churches, many white churches. The Catholic Church is truly an integrated parish.

Sister Maxine  
Your congregation having been there since 1941--were your sisters at the Selma marches in 1965? Such a pivotal moment in history.

Sister Pat  
You know, this is an interesting point because the Archbishop of Mobile would not allow our sisters to march--any religious in the diocese, they were not allowed to march. So our sisters here in Selma were not allowed to march. Many religious came from other places around the country. The Diocese of St. Louis actually charted a plane to bring in religious from the Diocese of St. Louis. But our sisters worked at the hospital, took care of those marchers who were beaten on the bridge, and had housing for people who needed it, and medical services for those who needed it. And Representative John Lewis, when he was beaten, he was brought to the hospital and has always been a friend to our congregation ever since right up until his death. He always remembered the Sisters of St. Joseph from Rochester, who helped him at that point in his life when he almost was killed after having been beaten so badly on the Edmund Pettus Bridge.

Sister Maxine  
Do your sisters recall being scared at that time? What was the feeling in the congregation while that was occurring, since they could not be out there?

Sister Pat  
I don't think that they were actually afraid of what was happening. There was some violence around the voting when they finally were given the right to vote. The sisters were considered to be black, because they worked with the black people. And so there was discrimination, and they had a difficult time getting registered to vote. They never received any physical violence addressed to them that I know of.

Sister Maxine  
Do you know if any of you sisters had the privilege to meet Dr. Martin Luther King?

Sister Pat  
Yes, he came to the hospital to thank the sisters for what they had done. And there's a wonderful picture of him that was a big billboard in town a couple of years ago and we were celebrating one of the anniversaries of Dr. Martin Luther King and one of our sisters with a newborn baby at the hospital. It was just a beautiful picture. And there are many sisters who do remember Dr. Martin Luther King at that point.

We're going to pause for a brief break. This is In Good Faith, a program of A Nun's Life Ministry. We'll be right back.

Sister Maxine  
Welcome back. This is Sister Maxine and my guest, Sister Patricia Flass. We love to hear from our listeners, and your input helps us create the podcasts you enjoy. Please take a couple of minutes after this podcast to fill out a short survey. Just click the link in the Episode Notes. We'd be very grateful. Sister Pat, let's talk about your current ministry, which is with the Rural Program. Can you describe what the program does and what your role in it is?

Sister Pat  
Well, we have a new program that we have started. It's almost two years old now. Course, the COVID epidemic interrupted the program quite a bit. But the program is designed to encourage Catholic Sisters and associates of congregations to come to the rural South to really learn firsthand about the poverty in rural areas of our country. And then to go back to where they are, and maybe duplicate some of the services. What has happened in a lot of congregations, including our own, is that the small towns and rural areas where we used to work, the ministries there have been closed, and almost all of our ministries now are located in in urban areas, right in the cities. And that has happened throughout the country. So the rural areas, more and more, have seen the religious presence diminish. And it is so important because the sisters have that ability to connect with people. And when they stay in a community a long time, people trust them. And that is so important, to build up that level of trust in the small communities. And so we hope that this program, which is funded by the Hilton Foundation, for Catholic Sisters, that this program will encourage religious congregations to consider rural ministry as part of their congregational ministries. Sisters come in, we spend, sometimes four days, sometimes a week or more. We visit the rural area, talk to the people, find out what their needs are, actually experience the travel time from one area to another--that has amazed a lot of people, how much time we have to spend on the road, just to get from one place to another. So the experience of rural ministry, the lack of Catholic churches--there's probably one Catholic Church to a county, if you're lucky. In some counties, there is no Catholic Church. And that is a deprivation for religious congregations with sisters who are used to being at daily Mass--come to the rural area and find out that that's not possible. So the program is to encourage people to come, sisters and associates to come to visit to find out about poverty in rural areas, and go back to their own state, or locale and maybe consider, again, working in rural ministry. Because it's just so important. And it's kind of forgotten.

Sister Maxine  
As you describe, like the transportation issue--I grew up on a farm in Iowa in a very rural area. And I think it's hard for people to understand what you're describing, the situation of there's not a church nearby. There's maybe not a grocery store nearby. There may not be a hospital nearby. I can imagine that the folks that you have worked with in the program have been surprised by all of these things.

Sister Pat  
Yes, many of them are surprised. Many of them are surprised by the poverty that exists here in the black belt. It's just something that is overwhelming to people who have not experienced that.

Sister Maxine  
When you take people to meet the folks who live in the area, what is that connection like? What do they talk about?

Sister Pat  
They talk about the desires that they have--especially the young parents, the desires they have for their children. They talk about the need for jobs, that always comes up. The need for better transportation, the need for better health care, the need for access to a grocery store. The people that we talk to can certainly explain better than I can, even, because they've lived it their whole life, the problems that they have living in this area--and yet they love it. Many of those people--they're so faith-filled. They're not people that are unchurched. They're not Catholic. people, but they certainly are Christian, good Christian people. And they're very devoted to their church, to their pastors. And they wouldn't give up the area. In many ways, they would just like to improve it.

Sister Maxine  
For the sisters and Associates, I know you had mentioned COVID has thrown a wrench into things. How many groups have you introduced to some of the rural people in the rural situations?

Sister Pat  
Well, there's been four or five different groups that have come down. One was before COVID, and the others have been during this year. So hopefully, we will have more. But right now, with the COVID cases going up instead of down, the whole program is on hold at this particular point in time, unfortunately, until the COVID is under control.

Sister Maxine  
As you reflect on your experiences in Alabama, for a long time, society blamed poverty on people who were poor, as if somehow they were the cause of poverty. And today, of course, we know that's not true. What other myths about poverty have you encountered myths that you feel need to be dispelled?

Sister Pat  
I think a lot of people think people are lazy because they don't have a job. And one of the major reasons they don't have a job is because they don't have a good education. They can graduate from high school or get a high school diploma and still not be able to read above a sixth-grade level. So that's one of the problems. So if we could fix the education system, that would be a big step to fixing poverty in this area. Health concerns are another one. There's so many, many people that receive disability because of health concerns. They never had the proper health care. And that has caused a great deterioration of their health over the years. So they go on disability, they're not able to work, that leads to more poverty. Single parents, of course, is another cause of poverty. Mothers who are raising two or more children, who don't have a means of supporting them, really, depending on family members, and little bit of service that they can receive from the state or the government.

Sister Maxine  
And of course facing, in this country, childcare systems that are not exactly family-friendly.

Sister Pat  
That's right. Yes, childcare--I can't even think of one. I think there is a small one here in Selma, a little one, for a small number of children. Some individuals take care of children in their homes, of course, they can get certified to have a home daycare program. So that does go on, enabling mothers to get a job and support their families.

Sister Maxine  
For you, as you reflect back on your experience, in what ways would you say the situation of poverty there has changed or has it?

Sister Pat  
In many of the same ways that persist today--again, one of the major causes is lack of a good educational system. The jobs that are available, sometimes they're low wage jobs. Industries, they know that the education system is poor, so they don't like to move here. So there's a reluctance. The crime rate is quite high in Selma, the murder rate, which is another deterrent for anybody who wants to relocate to the area. So there are many problems that exist today that have existed for a long time. And I don't know what the solution is. A lot of people come up with ideas to try to solve some of these problems. But so far, the problems are still here.

Sister Maxine  
Given the work that many people have done, and the considerations, and given a commitment of many years of your own life, to try and get help with this issue of poverty, it could be discouraging to not see changes. And from a faith perspective, it could maybe lead a person to wonder where is God and all of this?

Sister Pat  
Sometimes it is.

Sister Maxine  
How do you, at those times where you may feel discouraged--what helps you keep going?

Sister Pat  
Well, one thing is, is the goodness and the faith of the people that we serve. Their gratitude. The people there are just so wonderful, and kind and thoughtful of each other, willing to go out and help each other because it's the only support they have. So I guess that's what really keeps you going day by day. And you do see small changes. In the past few years, there have been a few more jobs, a few more companies offering opportunities. The community college here in Selma is offering programs to train people in the trades like welding and carpentry so they can help get better jobs. So there are small things that you can see that are improving the community. Certainly no big changes. Healthcare is better than it was--access to good healthcare. We have a free eye clinic, for example, that comes once a month, it's part of the ehealthlink program where I volunteer, so people can get glasses. That helps a lot of people.

Sister Maxine  

Has the faith of the people affected your own faith and your own ways that you look at God or pray?

Sister Pat  

Yes, definitely. Definitely has. You know, when you think about people that have nothing, or very little, and they are so grateful. And they are so grateful for what they have and what they are given, that sometimes I have to look at myself and say, you know, where's my gratitude for what I have? Because I have so much more.

Sister Maxine  
Pat, for our listeners who may want to get involved in addressing some of the issues of poverty, in whatever ways they could, what are some first steps they could take? Where are some places they could go to learn more, and to maybe get involved?

Sister Pat  
I don't know about a lot of places, but I do know that we have volunteers that come. We have a volunteer house here in Selma. So that's a different program, not part of the program for religious sisters that I'm directly responsible for. But we do have a volunteer house and people do come. They just have to make arrangements with the Edmundite Missions. Some have stayed for weeks or months or the whole summer to do various forms of ministry. And I think many of them are very grateful that they actually can see this firsthand for themselves and experience it, because it is so unique. So I would encourage people, if they are really interested, to contact the Edmundite Missions, and find out about opportunities for service.

Sister Maxine  
I'll make sure to put a link to the Edmundite Missions in the Episode Notes of the podcast.

Sister Pat  
That would be good, yes.

Sister Maxine  
And then people who may be in local or more rural communities, they may want to look at some of the things you talked about: food pantries, maybe volunteering at a clinic, ways to connect locally in their own areas.

Sister Pat  
Mm-hmm. We've had doctors come down and volunteer their services at the clinic for a certain period of time. Some have just retired, for instance, and knowing that there was no dentist or no podiatrist at the clinic, they have come down and offered their services. So there are many, many opportunities for service if people are interested in getting involved.

Sister Maxine  
We talked before about how your sisters, the Sisters of St. Joseph of Rochester, have been in this area, in the Selma area, for 80 years. If you were to look down the road, let's say another 80 years and say, "Here's my hopes for the people of this area--here's what I would hope for them. Here's what I would pray for them." What would it be?

Sister Pat  
Two things actually come to mind. One is improving the educational system, getting the state and the local areas to support education more than they do now. And then jobs, which are so important. I mean, we're never going to get out of poverty if people don't have good paying jobs to go to. So those are the two main concerns.

Sister Maxine  
Pat, we're coming to the end of our time together. I am so grateful for this conversation and I'm also grateful for the work of you and your sisters and the Edmundite Missions over the years in the Selma area. It's very impressive and very much needed.

Sister Pat  
Thank you for this opportunity to talk with you, and to share some of my insights about the Selma area in the black belt of Alabama.

Sister Maxine  
In Good Faith is a production of A Nun's Life Ministry, helping people discover and grow in their vocation by engaging questions about God, faith and religious life. This program is made possible through the grace of God and the support of the sponsors of A Nun's Life Ministry, and you, our listeners. Visit us at anunslife.org. God bless.

This transcript has been lightly edited for readability.