Can you disagree with the Pope if he’s infallible anyway?

 Sister Maxine   

Sister Shannon, we have another question. This one comes in from Melissa in Arizona. Melissa writes: “Thank you for your awesome podcast.”

Sister Shannon   

Oh, thank you!

Sister Maxine   

It's great to hear that --thank you so much, Melissa. And she continues, “I am in the process of conversion. I'm in RCIA classes and I have so many questions, but I'll pick just one. I've heard many grumblings from some Catholics regarding the progressive leadership of Pope Francis. I thought the pope had papal infallibility. If so, why are some people criticizing his leadership?

It's wonderful to hear, first of all, Melissa that you're in RCIA, which is the Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults. It's a process developed by the Catholic Church to bring people into the faith, helping them understand the faith and how to practice it. So, papal infallibility -- I think part of your question is, if he can't be wrong, then why disagree with him?

Sister Shannon   

Melissa, thank you for your question. This is another one that I told Sister Maxine we could have a whole podcast on. But let's talk a little bit about the basics of that belief within our Catholic tradition. The notion of papal infallibility was declared in the year 1870, during the First Vatican Council. I'm sure you've heard of the Second Vatican Council because it's more in our contemporary era, but this was the first. And there were a lot of things that were discussed at that Council, as was true of the Second Vatican Council. It was a way to define when it is that the words that come forth from the Holy Father are considered to be dogmatic and therefore must be believed in order for someone to remain within the Catholic Church. It does not mean that every word that comes from the mouth of the Holy Father is infallible.

There are particular times when the Holy Father speaks in a way that we identify as ex cathedra, which is the Latin for “from the chair” or “from the seat.” He has the seat of authority in the Catholic Church, the center of the Catholic Church is the church in the Vatican City in Rome. He speaks ex cathedra there as bishop of the whole church not just as bishop of Rome, which is his traditional role. The words that come or the teachings that come when the pope speaks ex cathedra are considered to be dogmatic, and that means as dogma, they must be believed in order to be a member of the faith tradition. Believe it or not, it's only happened twice that a pope has spoken ex cathedra, or infallibly. That was in the promulgation of the Assumption of Mary as a teaching, and the Immaculate Conception, one of which happened in the 19th century, and one in 1950--the dogma of the Assumption.

Sister Maxine   

It should not be misunderstood that infallibility means the pope is always right, or that the pope is somehow free from sin, which then would allow him to always be right.

Sister Shannon   

And the pope would never speak dogmatically unless he was in consultation with his cardinals, with his bishops, with his people. This is something that comes up from the hearts and the minds and the beliefs of the people. And when it is understood to be really an important element of our faith tradition, then it's pronounced. It's important that this happens on teachings of faith and morals, that the pope speaks infallibly only in those areas.

There's a distinction between what we would call teaching or doctrine and what we would call dogma. Teaching authority or doctrine is important for us as Catholics to believe, but we would not be excommunicated from the tradition if we were to question them, some of those teachings, because sometimes things change. We learn more, scientifically. Let me go way back. The church was very much against the belief that the sun is the center of the solar system, and they believed that the Earth was the center of the solar system. When the scientists started to say no, it's the sun, they were excommunicated.

Sister Maxine   

Yes, the price of disagreement, back then, was pretty steep and fairly consistent….

Sister Shannon   

It was, yes it was. The reason I give that as an example is because things change over time as we continue to learn. We do some archeological digs and we discover something that we didn't have before. We do some scientific work and we have to take into consideration what comes out of faith, and what is that we know now that we didn't know before.

Sister Maxine   

It’s not a departure from faith, [as if faith and knowledge] should somehow be immutable. It's that our faith is alive. It's a living faith.

Sister Shannon   

That's right. The same is true in terms of moral teaching. One hundred years ago, the question of artificial insemination or in vitro fertilization were not even questions that were on the lips of anybody. And so now that they are, now that science has done this, then the church is called upon to offer its wisdom about whether or not Catholics should participate in such things. But again, it doesn't achieve the level of dogma within the church because we know we continue to learn and to grow.

The other statement that you could talk about as dogmatic within our church tradition, of course, is our creed. That emerged in the early centuries of the church, as a result of several councils where they gathered to talk about who is Jesus, how do we understand him as God and man, what do we believe about the Holy Spirit, what do we believe about who God is. If you were to disregard the belief that is contained within the creed, then you would find yourself outside the dogmas of the church and really couldn't claim that you were a member of the community because that is so fundamental to who we are as a faith.

Sister Maxine   

These things aren't meant to be like a closed door. It’s really coming to understand what your faith teaches and embracing that so you can recognize yourself in your faith, in a sense. It's really important to be able to do that.

 Sister Shannon   

Let's go back to Pope Francis for a minute. Melissa, you asked the question about his progressive leadership and why some Catholics feel comfortable criticizing him. One of the things about Pope Francis that many people have noticed is that he has a very pastoral approach in all that he does. He's a learned man. He's from a culture that is different than the culture of the United States. He's from Argentina and what comes out of that background and that experience. He's a human person like the rest of us, learning and growing in his faith.

He approaches questions that are sometimes thrown at him in a very legalistic way, I think much the same way Jesus did. They handed Jesus a coin and he said, “Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, give to God what is God's.” They wanted him to say that it was okay to stone a woman, and he's scribbling on the ground in the sand and says, “If you're without any sin, throw the first stone.” Jesus, in response to these very literal interpretations of the law, often brought people to think more deeply. Personally, I think that's what Francis is gifted with.

Sister Maxine   

Absolutely. His pastoral heart--you can hear it in his writings on caring for creation, caring for people who are poor. You hear that over and over, those themes in his writing--what does it mean to be community, what does it mean to be neighbor.

Sister Shannon   

I’m reading right now Fratelli Tutti, Brothers and Sisters All, which is the most recent encyclical. Pope Francis has a heart for recognizing that this is a global community, that we have a responsibility to call all brother and sister, and he starts by talking about the story of the Good Samaritan. You probably know some of that story, Melissa, that Samaritans and Jews didn't like each other naturally, so it was such a surprise that faithful Jews--a priest and Levite--walk by and don't help and it's the Samaritan who stops. That's sort of the iconic symbol that Francis uses to talk about what does it mean to be brother and sister, and it comes from Saint Francis of Assisi, who saw all of creation as his brothers and sisters. Brother Sun and Sister Moon are associated with him. It's what Pope Francis attempts to do.

Sister Maxine   

And every pope is different. Some might be a little bit more legalistic, and you'll hear that. Whereas Francis may lead with the pastoral, some other folks may lead with a more legalistic point of view, and that's partly the difference between people. There's also, if we look back in history, a lot of disagreement with popes.

Sister Shannon   

Lots of it. And I think it's our right and responsibility as deeply committed Catholics to ask questions. I don't see anything wrong with criticism of the pope, asking the questions. I do think to critique is one thing—we are right to ask the questions and to explore what he's saying and how does it fit with what the church traditionally teaches. I wouldn't want somebody to be so negative and they're just, you know, going after him. But I think that's our responsibility, to know and to understand.

Sister Maxine   

And before we get, you know, too judgmental, it does require us to study what is being said, and questions are part of that. For example, in Francis’ writing, if we are challenged by part of that, the first thing I would do is to say to myself, “Why do I find myself reacting to that? What is in here that may help me grow in my faith and that right now I'm resisting.

Sister Shannon   

What is the question, where does it come from, why is it bothering me? That's important to consider. Pope Francis is a different pope than some of those that we've experienced in our lifetime. Some think he's moving too fast and some think he's not moving fast enough. But he has the charge of being the leader of the worldwide Catholic Church. This is not just local to him, this is all Catholics, every country, in every part of the world. He has to take his steps slowly, to consider thoughtfully and prayerfully. He, in fact, is this human person who has been called by God to lead the church at this time. He needs our prayers, he needs our care, and he needs our love and support.

Sister Maxine   

Melissa, I hope that this answers your question. We also are going to keep you in our prayers as you move forward in RCIA, which is so exciting. And I'm so happy for you!

Sister Shannon   

Lent is starting and before long, it will be Holy Saturday evening and they're officially brought into the church!

Sister Maxine   

That’s right! We'll have to say some extra special prayers then!